The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

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temporal1

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by temporal1 »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:39 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:34 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:16 pm
It's called bundling I think in some CA circles :lol:
It wasn't just the CA's that did that... It seems to have been a semi wide practice at one point but one which I would call distinctly unchristian.
Although, in practice, not that much different from many other dating & courtship practices amongst Christians, considering the rate of illegitimate births amongst Christians isn't much better than the rest of society.

Old saying,
“The first baby can come anytime. The rest take 9 months.”

That was an adult saying from times when marriage was expected and divorce rates were low.
It was considered a bit risque’ and comical.

It doesn’t make much sense to lots of folks these days. (Thank you, gov schools.)
Soloist:
Somewhat off topic I guess, but my wife had never met any Christian (pre-converting to Anabaptist) who actually refrained prior to marriage. She waited, and so did I. Among the CM's it seems to be normal comparably.

from my memory, as an older teen in the U.S. Midwest, thinking and hoping for marriage, it was SHOCKING to hear of some Scandinavian/European countries experimenting with “living together” before marriage.

along with birth control pills, the drug culture, vietnam, and so much more, living together and “free love” became rampant.

but i do remember that innocent odd feeling i had long ago when i first read about what the Europeans were said to be experimenting with. it seemed nothing less than other-worldly. marriage was so valued. it was something to dream about, prepare for, wait for, work for.

i hope to impart some of this to my sweet granddaughter, in a world that laughs+scoffs at it.

frankly, in my view, the pandemic HELPS with the message that, “yes, YOU CAN CHOOSE. you can make a difference with your choices. you can maintain physical distance, control germs+pathogens! you are not just a victim of carnal instincts.”
and, your choices matter. to you and everyone around you.

i hope LOADS of children and young people are getting these empowering messages.
that have not been taught in decades.
Last edited by temporal1 on Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Josh

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Josh »

Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:43 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:39 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:34 pm


It wasn't just the CA's that did that... It seems to have been a semi wide practice at one point but one which I would call distinctly unchristian.
Although, in practice, not that much different from many other dating & courtship practices amongst Christians, considering the rate of illegitimate births amongst Christians isn't much better than the rest of society.
Somewhat off topic I guess, but my wife had never met any Christian (pre-converting to Anabaptist) who actually refrained prior to marriage. She waited, and so did I. Among the CM's it seems to be normal comparably.
Yeah, it is definitely an expectation. If a couple does mess around prior to marriage they may end up confessing/repenting after they are married, because they feel a guilty conscience. It's considered a very serious thing.

I personally really appreciate this stance, it makes it feel a lot better to be a chaste person trying to stay chaste.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:25 pm
Mast's victims were not "prebuscent", he preyed on teenage boys - which is the same thing most homosexual predators do.
Many of his victims were also pre-teens according to the reporting. Or started as pre-teens and the abuse continued as they aged upwards.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Josh

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Josh »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:16 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:25 pm
Mast's victims were not "prebuscent", he preyed on teenage boys - which is the same thing most homosexual predators do.
Many of his victims were also pre-teens according to the reporting. Or started as pre-teens and the abuse continued as they aged upwards.
One of the reasons he only got 9 years is because many of his (U.S.) victims were over the age of 12 when the abuse started, and back then there was a shorter statute of limitations (that law has since been changed).
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Outsider

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Outsider »

Ken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:12 pm
As for religion? I tend to think that the farther Christianity separates itself from politics the healthier it will be. Almost all of the pushback against Christianity is in the political realm. People generally don’t care about ministers preaching against sin within their own churches and congregations. They object when religious teachings are expanded into the political realm and religious leaders try to implement them as policy, applicable to all whether Christian or non-Christian.
I agree with the first two sentences in the paragraph above, but (probably because of people like Jerry Fallwell and the gay-rights movements best friends at the Westview Baptist Church) they object to teaching things like homosexuality as a sin anywhere. You're right next to Canada, right? What about this?

https://christiannews.net/2013/02/28/ca ... ate-crime/

And there's been cases of street preachers in the UK being arrested for the same "crime".
Preach all you want about marriage within your own church or congregation and no one will notice or care. No one anywhere cares what the Amish position on marriage is, for example. But lobby for a state law that prohibits gay marriage for everyone and expect to get political pushback and be labeled a bigot.
I agree with the last sentence in the above paragraph. But aren't we called to preach to the lost, not just the choir?
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temporal1

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by temporal1 »

Outsider:
“I agree with the last sentence in the above paragraph. But aren't we called to preach to the lost, not just the choir?”

i attend Catholic mass with my granddaughter when i’m with her. This Sunday’s homily was on this topic, not from a political stance, from a first-person, real-world, in-the-world view. This topic repeats here, esp directed to young people, i presume because leadership knows the hellish world children are thrust into in their everyday lives.

Church leadership here seems to have a (restrained) urgency (that i appreciate hearing).
They are attempting to convey the urgency and gravity without alarm - with hope, and direction.

No easy task.

i sometimes wonder how difficult it is for them, how much under attack they are (without sharing all the details with parishioners).
they know they are asking a lot, and that it is not the easy path. it can be costly and downright dangerous. pray for strength.

children and young people deserve to know not to expect an easy time of it.

For me, a critical point is to share the Gospel - NOT to organize political blocs+cults for power and fortune.
Jesus did not suggest organizing political blocs for His sake. How often this is confused!
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Bootstrap

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Bootstrap »

Outsider wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:18 pm
Preach all you want about marriage within your own church or congregation and no one will notice or care. No one anywhere cares what the Amish position on marriage is, for example. But lobby for a state law that prohibits gay marriage for everyone and expect to get political pushback and be labeled a bigot.
I agree with the last sentence in the above paragraph. But aren't we called to preach to the lost, not just the choir?
Absolutely - but is lobbying for state laws the best way to do that? If so, do we also need laws on greed, lust, and not serving in the military?
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Ken »

Outsider wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:18 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:12 pm
As for religion? I tend to think that the farther Christianity separates itself from politics the healthier it will be. Almost all of the pushback against Christianity is in the political realm. People generally don’t care about ministers preaching against sin within their own churches and congregations. They object when religious teachings are expanded into the political realm and religious leaders try to implement them as policy, applicable to all whether Christian or non-Christian.
I agree with the first two sentences in the paragraph above, but (probably because of people like Jerry Fallwell and the gay-rights movements best friends at the Westview Baptist Church) they object to teaching things like homosexuality as a sin anywhere. You're right next to Canada, right? What about this?

https://christiannews.net/2013/02/28/ca ... ate-crime/

And there's been cases of street preachers in the UK being arrested for the same "crime".
Preach all you want about marriage within your own church or congregation and no one will notice or care. No one anywhere cares what the Amish position on marriage is, for example. But lobby for a state law that prohibits gay marriage for everyone and expect to get political pushback and be labeled a bigot.
I agree with the last sentence in the above paragraph. But aren't we called to preach to the lost, not just the choir?
The article you linked to is over 8 years old. I honestly don't pay much if any attention to what goes on in Canada so I really can't comment there. But I do stand by my comment that most of the conflicts between Christianity and the secular world happen when Christianity pushes outside of its own realm. People rarely care what churches do or believe when they keep to themselves. Unless there is something horrific like child abuse involved.

And if your faith compels you to "preach to the lost" or advocate for conservative Christian-centric laws and policies then you should expect and not be surprised when there is pushback from those who do not agree. That is how democracy works.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Outsider

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Outsider »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:34 pm
For me, a critical point is to share the Gospel - NOT to organize political blocs+cults for power and fortune.
Jesus did not suggest organizing political blocs for His sake. How often this is confused!
I with you 100% on that sentiment.
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Outsider

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Outsider »

Ken wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:59 pm And if your faith compels you to "preach to the lost" or advocate for conservative Christian-centric laws and policies then you should expect and not be surprised when there is pushback from those who do not agree. That is how democracy works.
I have no interest in making my religion a state religion. I am 100% behind the separation of Church and state. I don't want my Church imposing on the state because I don't want the state imposing on my religion.

And yes, I expect people will disagree with me if I share my faith- but I don't think it reasonable to accuse me of "hate speech" for it.

Do I hate Hindu's if I believe they're worshiping demonic Gods? Is it Muslim-bashing or Moromon-bashing to believe they're following false prophets? Am I hating divorcees by believing they are sinning?
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