The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

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Josh

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Josh »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:47 am
RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:45 am https://www.yahoo.com/news/conversion-t ... 10204.html
Conversion therapy ban 'would criminalise Christian parents stopping children seeking transgender treatment'
In a formal legal opinion sent to ministers last week, Philip Havers QC, a prominent human rights lawyer, wrote banning conversion therapy would unintentionally make it illegal for Christians to tell a child questioning their gender that they should remain in their birth sex.

This will come here after it succeeds in Europe.

Could be worse too... you could be a child struggling with this and want help but all the help available would try to confirm your "gender"
I have a friend from way back (haven't seen him in a decade) who recently contacted me asking if I know anyone who can help him. He struggles a lot with transgender feelings and even identified that way for a while, but found it made him even more miserable. Now he would like to find a psychologist who can help him feel happier without undergoing transition etc and living a transgender lifestyle, but the ones he has tried said they are not allowed to offer such a service.

It really is quite sad.
0 x
ken_sylvania

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by ken_sylvania »

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:28 pm
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:30 pm
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:35 pm

The common thread running through your answers here seems to be the question of whether it is legal to discriminate against the class of customer that is asking you to support their activities.

If a cake shop does custom decorating, the "not one of our standard designs" argument wouldn't fly. Aside from the question of what is legal, would you have any moral qualms about providing services for 2, 3, and 4?
We discriminate all the time. When we eat at Chipotle instead of McDonalds. When we hire John instead of Susan. I don't think that is problematic unless it is illegal discrimination. In your above examples, #2 and #4 are engaged in illegal acts. I would report them. #3 is just being silly and obnoxious. I would tell them to stop being silly and obnoxious and to step aside because I have other customers to help or business to take care of. And if they really insisted and were willing to drop $500 or whatever on a custom cake I would take their money and draw up a cute little devil and be unconcerned about it. If they want to pay me for my artistic interpretation of a devil I'll be artistic. It's just a cake. Artists have been drawing devils and demons for millennia. You can find them on stained glass cathedral and gargoyles on cathedrals across Europe and in countless Renaissance paintings from artists like Hieronymous Bosch.

And if #4 really isn't planning an insurrection and just wants to be racist then I would have a conversation with them about that. You do realize this is the flag of racists, traitors, and losers don't you? Are you a racist and a traitor and a loser? Is that the message you are trying to make? It is an interesting conversation to have. I lived over a decade in the south and can talk all day about confederate symbols and racism and the civil war.
Actually, #2 would be legal in CA and MA with the proper approvals. Aside from that, so you would report #2 and #4, but would you have any moral qualms about providing the services requested? That is the question I am asking. Perhaps the wedding would be illegal, but would that be enough to cause you to refuse to decorate and sell the cake for the occasion?


In regard to #3, I didn't ask anything about being willing to draw a devil on a cake. I asked if you would be willing to inscribe a declaration of loyalty to Lucifer on it. And for both #3 and #4, I'm referring to doing this for customers who are actually serious about Satan worship, and who are actually serious about promoting insurrection.
Ken, I am seriously interested in your viewpoint on this. I'm not trying to trap you, just trying to see if we have any common ground that we can start from to try to understand each other.
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Soloist

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Soloist »

Josh wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:29 pm

I have a friend from way back (haven't seen him in a decade) who recently contacted me asking if I know anyone who can help him. He struggles a lot with transgender feelings and even identified that way for a while, but found it made him even more miserable. Now he would like to find a psychologist who can help him feel happier without undergoing transition etc and living a transgender lifestyle, but the ones he has tried said they are not allowed to offer such a service.

It really is quite sad.
:cry: There are so few that even understand...
1 x
Josh

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Josh »

Soloist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:30 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:29 pm

I have a friend from way back (haven't seen him in a decade) who recently contacted me asking if I know anyone who can help him. He struggles a lot with transgender feelings and even identified that way for a while, but found it made him even more miserable. Now he would like to find a psychologist who can help him feel happier without undergoing transition etc and living a transgender lifestyle, but the ones he has tried said they are not allowed to offer such a service.

It really is quite sad.
:cry: There are so few that even understand...
Yep, whilst folks like Ken continue to litigate that there's nothing that's a big deal, everything's just fine, get with the program Josh, it's 2021, move on to a more modern mindset, Christians won't be persecuted but if you are persecuted it's your fault for being such a backwards minded bigot.

Meanwhile trans people commit suicide at astonishing rates and it's basically illegal to even try to help them.
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Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Ken »

ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:49 pmKen, I am seriously interested in your viewpoint on this. I'm not trying to trap you, just trying to see if we have any common ground that we can start from to try to understand each other.
Sure. I grew up in the Mennonite Church before the merge that became MCUSA and my father became a Mennonite minister later in life after I left home. My huge extended family has a variety of ministers, professors farmers, etc. Some ultra-conservative (politically) some very liberal. After I got married my wife's medical career took us to Waco TX. She grew up Catholic and wasn't particularly interested in the Mennonite games and clannishness of the church and we eventually settled on Episcopal as a compromise we were comfortable with and made some very good friends in the Episcopal Church there.

One of the most distasteful things about living in an intensely Southern Baptist community like Waco is how performative all the Evangelical Christianity is. It is always aggressively in your face. Public prayers at football games, school board meetings, graduations, faculty meetings at a public HS, etc. Cheerleaders holding up bible verse signs. The big local Baptist megachurch youth groups would produce color-coded t-shirts and all wear them on the same day at HS so everyone would know who the cool Christian kids were and who wasn't. They dominated the clubs, student government, sports, etc. But is very alienating to every kid who isn't part of that group. The kids of other faiths, and those who just aren't the popular crowd. In a city with 200 churches it isn't enough to put up Christian creches in the church front yards at Christmas we have to have a battle about putting one in front of city hall as well. And put a 10 Commandments monument in front of the courthouse even though at best only 2 of the 10 Commandments have any basis in law. I find it all the opposite of the teachings of Jesus about how we are supposed to pray in secret not perform in public, and treat our neighbors and strangers in our midst with love and generosity. Its about "look at me" rather than being generous and loving. And in Waco it's the same strain of Christianity that violently supported 100 years of Jim Crow segregation and is utterly untroubled by racism that remains within the community.

Other faiths have their own performative elements. Hasidic Jews with all their special rules. Muslims with the dietary rules and rules about dress. The focus can slip to "Look at me God, how devout I am" "Or Look at me general public, how devout we are" rather than asking: "how should we treat others?

I find the best parts of Christianity to be those that focus on how we should treat others. With love and charity and generosity. And the worst parts of Christianity to be the judgmental performative aspects. Everyone. And I mean absolutely everyone picks and chooses which aspects of Christianity they wish to follow. Some follow a vow of poverty and turn inward like the monastic societies. Others spend their time evangelizing on street corners. Some focus on outward appearances. And others pick specific narrow teachings to focus their lives around. Speaking in tongues, handling snakes, protesting abortion, helping refugees, etc. etc. Every denomination does the same thing to some extent. And we all have our own personal strengths and traits that we struggle with.

Myself I struggle with being judgmental. As a teacher this can be a bad thing. When faced with a difficult and trying student I sometimes have to remind myself "this is someone's child who loves them." And I have remind myself that many kids live unsafe lives with abusive parents, dangerous families, economic uncertainty and even hunger. And that maybe learning the Krebs Cycle isn't the most important thing in this child's life today. Or when I'm driving around my own city and see homeless encampments under freeway bridges I find myself being judgmental and intolerant and wishing the city would just clean it all up and chase them away. Or back in Texas the obnoxious idiots rolling coal in their tricked out F250s with the confederate flags in back blasting around town full of road rage. Being charitable and generous can be a struggle.

I have a cousin, now deceased, who was a very conservative Mennonite minister. Conservative politically not in Menno terms. I think they were Conservative Conference. He was a big huge burly guy who made the focus of his ministry to be anti-LGBT. He devoted thousands of hours to that one mission. Fighting against other ministers who were more tolerant within their own churches. Trying to get other ministers expelled or disciplined. Going to school every school board meeting to rail against trans kids using the bathroom. Campaigning against gay marriage. He would become enraged and shout down any others who disagreed. Red faced, veins bulging. Full of spite and hate while always quoting verses from memory. It was not a good look for him or Christianity. People found him terrifying. And I would think to myself: "Out of all the injustice and suffering and violence in the world, this is what you want to focus your life on? Hating the most vulnerable among us who just want to be left alone? Is that the picture of Christianity that you want to present to the outside world?

So when I see these sorts of things crop up in the news. The wedding cake baker who decides to tell a gay couple "I refuse to serve you because I disapprove of who you are" I know that it comes across as being judgmental and intolerant and uncharitable. It is saying "my disapproval is more important than helping my customers, who are probably my neighbors, celebrate a day that is important to them. And for that reason it comes across (at least to the outside world) as being performative. Publicly expressing my disapproval is more important to me than simply helping my neighbors or customers.

And since we are talking about the decline in Christianity. It is this culture war stuff that I honestly think is accelerating that decline. Along with the vast majority of evangelical church leaders who cast their lot entirely with Trump. I work with young people every day and when they see that sort of thing they just roll their eyes and want no part of it at all. If you live in a closed Menno world full of youth who are carefully curated to be carbon copies of their conservative parents you may not see it. But in the wider outside world, Christianity frankly looks angry, intolerant, bigoted, and ignorant. Especially to a large majority of youth who tend not to hate or disapprove of their LGBT classmates. Even the right wing Southern Baptist ones in Texas. They really don't. And who, like most youth, earnestly seek to make the world a better place.

So there you have it. I think the angry intolerant and political aspects of Christianity are what is driving it's decline in this country. I think Trump represented peak right wing political Christianity. Or Christian nationality. Whatever you want to call it. And much of the rest of the country took a good 4-year look at it and decided they wanted to have nothing of it. Every year the country becomes more diverse, less white, more urban, and more tolerant. If Christianity wants to thrive and survive as a dominant faith, it needs to learn how to swim in those waters, not just Trump-land where it is speaking only to the faithful.
2 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
temporal1

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by temporal1 »

Josh wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:44 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:30 pm
Josh wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:29 pm

I have a friend from way back (haven't seen him in a decade) who recently contacted me asking if I know anyone who can help him. He struggles a lot with transgender feelings and even identified that way for a while, but found it made him even more miserable. Now he would like to find a psychologist who can help him feel happier without undergoing transition etc and living a transgender lifestyle, but the ones he has tried said they are not allowed to offer such a service.

It really is quite sad.
:cry: There are so few that even understand...
Yep, whilst folks like Ken continue to litigate that there's nothing that's a big deal, everything's just fine, get with the program Josh, it's 2021, move on to a more modern mindset, Christians won't be persecuted but if you are persecuted it's your fault for being such a backwards minded bigot.

Meanwhile trans people commit suicide at astonishing rates and it's basically illegal to even try to help them.
:-|
0 x
Grace
Posts: 4693
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:26 pm
Location: Pennsylvania
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Grace »

Ken wrote : So when I see these sorts of things crop up in the news. The wedding cake baker who decides to tell a gay couple "I refuse to serve you because I disapprove of who you are" I know that it comes across as being judgmental and intolerant and uncharitable. It is saying "my disapproval is more important than helping my customers, who are probably my neighbors, celebrate a day that is important to them. And for that reason it comes across (at least to the outside world) as being performative. Publicly expressing my disapproval is more important to me than simply helping my neighbors or customers.
While I appreciate your openness and candor in the prior post, this statement is based on a false narrative. I am confused why you purport something that isn't true. If you research the cases of Christian bakers, you will find that the bakers gladly served gay people in their places of business. When gay clients came into their shops to purchase baked goods, they were served with kindness and respect, the same as everyone else. The line was crossed when the gay couple asked the bakers to engage in an event, the baker could not in good conscience engage in.
0 x
Josh

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Josh »

Indeed, the homosexual activists were engaging in exactly the kind of performative civil religion that Ken doesn’t like about Southern Baptists.
0 x
Ken
Posts: 21863
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
Location: Washington State
Affiliation: former MCUSA

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by Ken »

Josh wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:41 am Indeed, the homosexual activists were engaging in exactly the kind of performative civil religion that Ken doesn’t like about Southern Baptists.
Sure. Maybe so. Guess what? It often takes two to tangle. And two wrongs don't make a right.

KenSylvania asked for my opinion and I gave it. We live in a changing country and this sort of performative intolerance is simply not a good look for Christianity. Whether it is wedding cake bakers or Kim Davis, the clerk in Kentucky refusing marriage licenses based on her "good conscience". Or a generation ago when some denominations cited scripture and religious conscience to ban inter-racial dating and marriage. My opinion is that it is this sort of thing that is actually leading to the "decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America" to cite the title of this thread. Christianity is losing millions of young people over this issue. If you don't believe me visit any public school and interview kids from evangelical and conservative Christian families about their views towards their LGBT classmates. Another entirely unrelated example is all the conservative Christian denial about human-caused climate change. That doesn't play well with young people either.

Maybe we are better off with a country in which 5% is ultra-devout and uncompromising conservative sects like the Amish and Holdemans and the rest of the country is secular. But you can't have it both ways. You can't expect Christianity to have mass universal or majority appeal and then hold to positions that a growing number of Americans disagree with.
1 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
ken_sylvania

Re: The decline of nominal and sacral Christianity in America

Post by ken_sylvania »

Ken wrote: ↑Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:09 am
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:49 pmKen, I am seriously interested in your viewpoint on this. I'm not trying to trap you, just trying to see if we have any common ground that we can start from to try to understand each other.
Sure. I grew up in the Mennonite Church before the merge that became MCUSA and my father became a Mennonite minister later in life after I left home. My huge extended family has a variety of ministers, professors farmers, etc. Some ultra-conservative (politically) some very liberal. After I got married my wife's medical career took us to Waco TX. She grew up Catholic and wasn't particularly interested in the Mennonite games and clannishness of the church and we eventually settled on Episcopal as a compromise we were comfortable with and made some very good friends in the Episcopal Church there.

One of the most distasteful things about living in an intensely Southern Baptist community like Waco is how performative all the Evangelical Christianity is. It is always aggressively in your face. Public prayers at football games, school board meetings, graduations, faculty meetings at a public HS, etc. Cheerleaders holding up bible verse signs. The big local Baptist megachurch youth groups would produce color-coded t-shirts and all wear them on the same day at HS so everyone would know who the cool Christian kids were and who wasn't. They dominated the clubs, student government, sports, etc. But is very alienating to every kid who isn't part of that group. The kids of other faiths, and those who just aren't the popular crowd. In a city with 200 churches it isn't enough to put up Christian creches in the church front yards at Christmas we have to have a battle about putting one in front of city hall as well. And put a 10 Commandments monument in front of the courthouse even though at best only 2 of the 10 Commandments have any basis in law. I find it all the opposite of the teachings of Jesus about how we are supposed to pray in secret not perform in public, and treat our neighbors and strangers in our midst with love and generosity. Its about "look at me" rather than being generous and loving. And in Waco it's the same strain of Christianity that violently supported 100 years of Jim Crow segregation and is utterly untroubled by racism that remains within the community.

Other faiths have their own performative elements. Hasidic Jews with all their special rules. Muslims with the dietary rules and rules about dress. The focus can slip to "Look at me God, how devout I am" "Or Look at me general public, how devout we are" rather than asking: "how should we treat others?

I find the best parts of Christianity to be those that focus on how we should treat others. With love and charity and generosity. And the worst parts of Christianity to be the judgmental performative aspects. Everyone. And I mean absolutely everyone picks and chooses which aspects of Christianity they wish to follow. Some follow a vow of poverty and turn inward like the monastic societies. Others spend their time evangelizing on street corners. Some focus on outward appearances. And others pick specific narrow teachings to focus their lives around. Speaking in tongues, handling snakes, protesting abortion, helping refugees, etc. etc. Every denomination does the same thing to some extent. And we all have our own personal strengths and traits that we struggle with.

Myself I struggle with being judgmental. As a teacher this can be a bad thing. When faced with a difficult and trying student I sometimes have to remind myself "this is someone's child who loves them." And I have remind myself that many kids live unsafe lives with abusive parents, dangerous families, economic uncertainty and even hunger. And that maybe learning the Krebs Cycle isn't the most important thing in this child's life today. Or when I'm driving around my own city and see homeless encampments under freeway bridges I find myself being judgmental and intolerant and wishing the city would just clean it all up and chase them away. Or back in Texas the obnoxious idiots rolling coal in their tricked out F250s with the confederate flags in back blasting around town full of road rage. Being charitable and generous can be a struggle.

I have a cousin, now deceased, who was a very conservative Mennonite minister. Conservative politically not in Menno terms. I think they were Conservative Conference. He was a big huge burly guy who made the focus of his ministry to be anti-LGBT. He devoted thousands of hours to that one mission. Fighting against other ministers who were more tolerant within their own churches. Trying to get other ministers expelled or disciplined. Going to school every school board meeting to rail against trans kids using the bathroom. Campaigning against gay marriage. He would become enraged and shout down any others who disagreed. Red faced, veins bulging. Full of spite and hate while always quoting verses from memory. It was not a good look for him or Christianity. People found him terrifying. And I would think to myself: "Out of all the injustice and suffering and violence in the world, this is what you want to focus your life on? Hating the most vulnerable among us who just want to be left alone? Is that the picture of Christianity that you want to present to the outside world?

So when I see these sorts of things crop up in the news. The wedding cake baker who decides to tell a gay couple "I refuse to serve you because I disapprove of who you are" I know that it comes across as being judgmental and intolerant and uncharitable. It is saying "my disapproval is more important than helping my customers, who are probably my neighbors, celebrate a day that is important to them. And for that reason it comes across (at least to the outside world) as being performative. Publicly expressing my disapproval is more important to me than simply helping my neighbors or customers.

And since we are talking about the decline in Christianity. It is this culture war stuff that I honestly think is accelerating that decline. Along with the vast majority of evangelical church leaders who cast their lot entirely with Trump. I work with young people every day and when they see that sort of thing they just roll their eyes and want no part of it at all. If you live in a closed Menno world full of youth who are carefully curated to be carbon copies of their conservative parents you may not see it. But in the wider outside world, Christianity frankly looks angry, intolerant, bigoted, and ignorant. Especially to a large majority of youth who tend not to hate or disapprove of their LGBT classmates. Even the right wing Southern Baptist ones in Texas. They really don't. And who, like most youth, earnestly seek to make the world a better place.

So there you have it. I think the angry intolerant and political aspects of Christianity are what is driving it's decline in this country. I think Trump represented peak right wing political Christianity. Or Christian nationality. Whatever you want to call it. And much of the rest of the country took a good 4-year look at it and decided they wanted to have nothing of it. Every year the country becomes more diverse, less white, more urban, and more tolerant. If Christianity wants to thrive and survive as a dominant faith, it needs to learn how to swim in those waters, not just Trump-land where it is speaking only to the faithful.
Thank you. This is helpful to understand where you are coming from. It seems to me though that you are projecting specific motives and viewpoints onto others that are likely far from correct. Did the Colorado wedding cake baker really tell the gay couple "I refuse to serve you because I disapprove of who you are."? Or did he say "I cannot in good conscience become a participant in an occasion that is a mockery of God's plan for marriage and that is a celebration of wickedness?

I don't feel that you've given me a straight answer yet on whether you believe it would be morally right to provide a custom decorated cake for a serious dedication to Lucifer, or whether you believe it would be morally acceptable to provide a cake or a venue for a wedding between a 13 year old and a 60 year old. Or would it have been morally acceptable, in years gone by, to have provided custom party supplies for a celebration of a lynching or massacre?
0 x
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