Ken wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:56 am1. If I was a wedding cake baker who disapproved of gay marriage on religious grounds and a gay couple came into my shop asking for a cake. I would tell them that "I disapprove of gay marriage on religious grounds but I understand that you now have a legal right to marry under the Constitution. And that state law prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. So I will reluctantly do my best to accommodate you on the understanding that this does not mean I approve. Is that fair?"
You do know that's illegal discrimination, right? Open and shut case, you'd lose in court, have a big judgment to pay to the gay couple, and have to liquidate and sell your business to pay them.
I have to agree, you would be on very shaky grounds as you created a hostile environment for them.
There was a situation I heard of where a seed processing plant had taken an order to clean some seed and later they found out it was for a brewery. They respectfully told the company that they would decline to clean any further seeds from them but would complete the current order. Now the man telling the story said that the brewery could have taken them to court and won against them but chose to honor them instead and conduct their business elsewhere.
The primary issue is over services that participate in an act we would see as sinful. No photographer would be willing to take pornographic pictures and currently society would honor that refusal. They would not however honor a request to not take photos of guys kissing or of a divorce and remarriage wedding. They would find it ridiculous as you do and we would lose in court. This is why statements have been made about either going underground with these businesses or leaving them entirely.
If you are really sincere about understanding our practices and beliefs, stop mocking them.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/conversion-t ... 10204.html
Conversion therapy ban 'would criminalise Christian parents stopping children seeking transgender treatment'
In a formal legal opinion sent to ministers last week, Philip Havers QC, a prominent human rights lawyer, wrote banning conversion therapy would unintentionally make it illegal for Christians to tell a child questioning their gender that they should remain in their birth sex.
RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:45 amhttps://www.yahoo.com/news/conversion-t ... 10204.html
Conversion therapy ban 'would criminalise Christian parents stopping children seeking transgender treatment'
In a formal legal opinion sent to ministers last week, Philip Havers QC, a prominent human rights lawyer, wrote banning conversion therapy would unintentionally make it illegal for Christians to tell a child questioning their gender that they should remain in their birth sex.
This will come here after it succeeds in Europe.
Could be worse too... you could be a child struggling with this and want help but all the help available would try to confirm your "gender"
RZehr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:45 amhttps://www.yahoo.com/news/conversion-t ... 10204.html
Conversion therapy ban 'would criminalise Christian parents stopping children seeking transgender treatment'
In a formal legal opinion sent to ministers last week, Philip Havers QC, a prominent human rights lawyer, wrote banning conversion therapy would unintentionally make it illegal for Christians to tell a child questioning their gender that they should remain in their birth sex.
This will come here after it succeeds in Europe.
Could be worse too... you could be a child struggling with this and want help but all the help available would try to confirm your "gender"
Children have already been taking from their parents by social services and rehomed in BC and Ontario for parents refusing to give their children hormonal therapy drugs.
Wade wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:50 am
Children have already been taking from their parents by social services and rehomed in BC and Ontario for parents refusing to give their children hormonal therapy drugs.
Honestly... I think its time Christians start looking for new homes if they live in Canada.
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:56 am
To answer your questions....
1. If I was a wedding cake baker who disapproved of gay marriage on religious grounds and a gay couple came into my shop asking for a cake. I would tell them that "I disapprove of gay marriage on religious grounds but I understand that you now have a legal right to marry under the Constitution. And that state law prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. So I will reluctantly do my best to accommodate you on the understanding that this does not mean I approve. Is that fair?"
2. If a 60 year old man came into my shop with a 13 year old girl for a wedding cake I would tell him. "Sir, what you are doing is statutory rape and child molestation" and then I would call the police and report them. State law does not protect rapists or pedophiles so I would be on solid ground.
3. If someone came into my shop asking for a cake honoring Lucifer, I would tell him. "I'm sorry sir, we do wedding cakes not devil cakes. We don't have any Lucifer designs. But I'm happy to sell you any cake in the shop and you can do what you want with it." As far as I know, devil worshipers are not a protected class and so I would be on solid ground.
4. If someone came into my shop asking for a confederate insurrection flag cake I would tell him. "I'm sorry sir, we do wedding cakes not insurrection cakes. The confederate flag is not one of our standard designs. But I'm happy to sell you any cake in the shop and you can do what you want with it." As far as I know, insurrectionists and racists are not a protected class and so I would be on solid ground.
The common thread running through your answers here seems to be the question of whether it is legal to discriminate against the class of customer that is asking you to support their activities.
If a cake shop does custom decorating, the "not one of our standard designs" argument wouldn't fly. Aside from the question of what is legal, would you have any moral qualms about providing services for 2, 3, and 4?
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:56 am
To answer your questions....
1. If I was a wedding cake baker who disapproved of gay marriage on religious grounds and a gay couple came into my shop asking for a cake. I would tell them that "I disapprove of gay marriage on religious grounds but I understand that you now have a legal right to marry under the Constitution. And that state law prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. So I will reluctantly do my best to accommodate you on the understanding that this does not mean I approve. Is that fair?"
2. If a 60 year old man came into my shop with a 13 year old girl for a wedding cake I would tell him. "Sir, what you are doing is statutory rape and child molestation" and then I would call the police and report them. State law does not protect rapists or pedophiles so I would be on solid ground.
3. If someone came into my shop asking for a cake honoring Lucifer, I would tell him. "I'm sorry sir, we do wedding cakes not devil cakes. We don't have any Lucifer designs. But I'm happy to sell you any cake in the shop and you can do what you want with it." As far as I know, devil worshipers are not a protected class and so I would be on solid ground.
4. If someone came into my shop asking for a confederate insurrection flag cake I would tell him. "I'm sorry sir, we do wedding cakes not insurrection cakes. The confederate flag is not one of our standard designs. But I'm happy to sell you any cake in the shop and you can do what you want with it." As far as I know, insurrectionists and racists are not a protected class and so I would be on solid ground.
The common thread running through your answers here seems to be the question of whether it is legal to discriminate against the class of customer that is asking you to support their activities.
If a cake shop does custom decorating, the "not one of our standard designs" argument wouldn't fly. Aside from the question of what is legal, would you have any moral qualms about providing services for 2, 3, and 4?
We discriminate all the time. When we eat at Chipotle instead of McDonalds. When we hire John instead of Susan. I don't think that is problematic unless it is illegal discrimination. In your above examples, #2 and #4 are engaged in illegal acts. I would report them. #3 is just being silly and obnoxious. I would tell them to stop being silly and obnoxious and to step aside because I have other customers to help or business to take care of. And if they really insisted and were willing to drop $500 or whatever on a custom cake I would take their money and draw up a cute little devil and be unconcerned about it. If they want to pay me for my artistic interpretation of a devil I'll be artistic. It's just a cake. Artists have been drawing devils and demons for millennia. You can find them on stained glass cathedral and gargoyles on cathedrals across Europe and in countless Renaissance paintings from artists like Hieronymous Bosch.
And if #4 really isn't planning an insurrection and just wants to be racist then I would have a conversation with them about that. You do realize this is the flag of racists, traitors, and losers don't you? Are you a racist and a traitor and a loser? Is that the message you are trying to make? It is an interesting conversation to have. I lived over a decade in the south and can talk all day about confederate symbols and racism and the civil war.
Last edited by Ken on Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:30 pm
We discriminate all the time. When we eat at Chipotle instead of McDonalds. When we hire John instead of Susan. I don't think that is problematic unless it is illegal discrimination. In your above examples, #2 and #4 are engaged in illegal acts. I would report them. #3 is just being silly and obnoxious. I would tell them to stop being silly and obnoxious and to step aside because I have other customers to help or business to take care of. And if they really insisted and were willing to drop $500 or whatever on a custom cake I would take their money and draw up a cute little devil and be unconcerned about it. If they want to pay me for my artistic interpretation of a devil I'll be artistic. It's just a cake. Artists have been drawing devils and demons for millennia. You can find them on stained glass cathedral and gargoyles on cathedrals across Europe and in countless Renaissance paintings from artists like Hieronymous Bosch.
I think that you elevate the law in terms of deciding right and wrong. We elevate Scripture. I've been discriminated against for "not being able to repair tractors" Same for the guy that was hired... He happened to be willing to work on Sunday...
Nursing School, all the scholarships available were for women despite the plead for more men. The 7 guys that entered my nursing school, 1 graduated... The women? well we lost about 30% of our class over all including the guys first term second year. Total loss was higher then 50%.
Ken wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 2:56 am
To answer your questions....
1. If I was a wedding cake baker who disapproved of gay marriage on religious grounds and a gay couple came into my shop asking for a cake. I would tell them that "I disapprove of gay marriage on religious grounds but I understand that you now have a legal right to marry under the Constitution. And that state law prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. So I will reluctantly do my best to accommodate you on the understanding that this does not mean I approve. Is that fair?"
2. If a 60 year old man came into my shop with a 13 year old girl for a wedding cake I would tell him. "Sir, what you are doing is statutory rape and child molestation" and then I would call the police and report them. State law does not protect rapists or pedophiles so I would be on solid ground.
3. If someone came into my shop asking for a cake honoring Lucifer, I would tell him. "I'm sorry sir, we do wedding cakes not devil cakes. We don't have any Lucifer designs. But I'm happy to sell you any cake in the shop and you can do what you want with it." As far as I know, devil worshipers are not a protected class and so I would be on solid ground.
4. If someone came into my shop asking for a confederate insurrection flag cake I would tell him. "I'm sorry sir, we do wedding cakes not insurrection cakes. The confederate flag is not one of our standard designs. But I'm happy to sell you any cake in the shop and you can do what you want with it." As far as I know, insurrectionists and racists are not a protected class and so I would be on solid ground.
The common thread running through your answers here seems to be the question of whether it is legal to discriminate against the class of customer that is asking you to support their activities.
If a cake shop does custom decorating, the "not one of our standard designs" argument wouldn't fly. Aside from the question of what is legal, would you have any moral qualms about providing services for 2, 3, and 4?
We discriminate all the time. When we eat at Chipotle instead of McDonalds. When we hire John instead of Susan. I don't think that is problematic unless it is illegal discrimination. In your above examples, #2 and #4 are engaged in illegal acts. I would report them. #3 is just being silly and obnoxious. I would tell them to stop being silly and obnoxious and to step aside because I have other customers to help or business to take care of. And if they really insisted and were willing to drop $500 or whatever on a custom cake I would take their money and draw up a cute little devil and be unconcerned about it. If they want to pay me for my artistic interpretation of a devil I'll be artistic. It's just a cake. Artists have been drawing devils and demons for millennia. You can find them on stained glass cathedral and gargoyles on cathedrals across Europe and in countless Renaissance paintings from artists like Hieronymous Bosch.
And if #4 really isn't planning an insurrection and just wants to be racist then I would have a conversation with them about that. You do realize this is the flag of racists, traitors, and losers don't you? Are you a racist and a traitor and a loser? Is that the message you are trying to make? It is an interesting conversation to have. I lived over a decade in the south and can talk all day about confederate symbols and racism and the civil war.
Actually, #2 would be legal in CA and MA with the proper approvals. Aside from that, so you would report #2 and #4, but would you have any moral qualms about providing the services requested? That is the question I am asking. Perhaps the wedding would be illegal, but would that be enough to cause you to refuse to decorate and sell the cake for the occasion?
In regard to #3, I didn't ask anything about being willing to draw a devil on a cake. I asked if you would be willing to inscribe a declaration of loyalty to Lucifer on it. And for both #3 and #4, I'm referring to doing this for customers who are actually serious about Satan worship, and who are actually serious about promoting insurrection.
If we are talking about Christianity then the question is about what God wants us to do. What are his commands and wishes? How are we to relate to gay people in a Christian way?
Are we to shun them as if they were "untouchables?"
Are we to do ordinary business with them but not marriage-related business?
Are we to do marriage-related business but not custom-designed marriage related business?
Are we to do custom-designed marriage related business, but not custom-designed marriage related business that contains a written message?
What is the Christian way to relate to gay people? It's a serious question. My understanding of the answer is clearly different from yours.
You are the one who is saying there is a line to be drawn. I think it is entirely fair to ask exactly where that line should be placed and why.
We should not shun them as if they are "untouchables."
We should deal with them respectfully as we would any other person.
We should avoid making statements and taking actions that would condone their sinful relationship as normal.
Paul wrote that it's not necessary to inquire about whether meat was offered to idols, but that if someone volunteers that information that we should then abstain. I think the same principle applies here. If I sell wedding cards, I wouldn't quiz each of my customers about whether the card they are buying is for a straight couple, a gay couple, or a D&R couple. I would not stock cards with a message tailored to a D&R wedding or to a same gender wedding. If a customer asked me to help them select a card with a message appropriate for a same gender wedding I would respectfully decline. I don't think, though, that I would have a problem selling them a card if they picked it out themselves.
I think it comes down to how close and direct is the link between our action and the sin. And that applies to other areas of life as well. I don't think we should be selling products directly to the military or to vendors who we know are dealing mainly with the military, but I wouldn't feel any particular qualms about selling to a wholesaler where my product is conglomerated with that from a thousand other producers even if I knew that the military accounted for 20% of that wholesaler's product sales. Just don't ask me what percentage is acceptable. I know I wouldn't be comfortable selling to a wholesaler if my product was going into a pot of which 95% went to the military. For me there isn't a bright line on this.
Ken wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:28 pm
You are the one who is saying there is a line to be drawn. I think it is entirely fair to ask exactly where that line should be placed and why.
It is fair to ask where the line should be drawn and why, provided it is done in a respectful manner.
Do you agree that there is a line to be drawn? For instance, if you were a cake decorator would you be willing to make and sell a cake celebrating a marriage between a 60 year old man and a 13 year old girl? Would you be willing to provide the wedding venue for such a wedding? Would you be willing to rent them a bridal suite for the first night?
Would you be willing decorate a cake featuring a declaration of loyalty to Lucifer?
Would you be willing to decorate a cake with a confederate battle flag and a call to rebellion against the Federal government?
To answer your questions....
1. If I was a wedding cake baker who disapproved of gay marriage on religious grounds and a gay couple came into my shop asking for a cake. I would tell them that "I disapprove of gay marriage on religious grounds but I understand that you now have a legal right to marry under the Constitution. And that state law prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation. So I will reluctantly do my best to accommodate you on the understanding that this does not mean I approve. Is that fair?"
2. If a 60 year old man came into my shop with a 13 year old girl for a wedding cake I would tell him. "Sir, what you are doing is statutory rape and child molestation" and then I would call the police and report them. State law does not protect rapists or pedophiles so I would be on solid ground.
3. If someone came into my shop asking for a cake honoring Lucifer, I would tell him. "I'm sorry sir, we do wedding cakes not devil cakes. We don't have any Lucifer designs. But I'm happy to sell you any cake in the shop and you can do what you want with it." As far as I know, devil worshipers are not a protected class and so I would be on solid ground.
4. If someone came into my shop asking for a confederate insurrection flag cake I would tell him. "I'm sorry sir, we do wedding cakes not insurrection cakes. The confederate flag is not one of our standard designs. But I'm happy to sell you any cake in the shop and you can do what you want with it." As far as I know, insurrectionists and racists are not a protected class and so I would be on solid ground.
You seem to completely ignore the fact that religion was the original “protected class”. The first amendment, freedom of speech which has been utilized for all sorts of wickedness by stretching the definition, was clearly linked to religion. Religion is still supposedly protected. If anything, it should be the clearest and strongest protection.
And you seem to be completely lost as to where we conservatives are making this distinction of discrimination. We don’t have a problem selling things to sinners. As much as you seem to want that to be the case, and as much as you keep trying to brush the distinction into bigotry, it just isn’t the case.
This is ridiculous. Just because someone waves dollars at someone, does not mean we have to jump to their tune and sin. Good luck hiring a Muslim baker to draw Mohamed on a cake.
You seem to be perfectly content to allow the state to dictate and define what good ethics are.