Randal Martin on the CAM/Jeriah Debacle

[Soloist]

Since none of you have been in the military... Don't presume to judge my response to this woman. She went to a hotel on a holiday weekend with a single bed with a single male, her boyfriend. The hotel party was well known and taught in the military as the place to go... I was very well trained and my personal views were not stated once to this woman and I felt sorry for her. But I wasn't saying she was guilty of a crime or worthy of being stoned. You really have no concept of the military.
My wife was invited to one of these hotel parties, she knew what it was due to military training and declined. This training was repeated at every single training command and this lady was a student at the time. (so was her boyfriend)
Clearly distortion is the name of the game here... If thats how you chose to present evidence and then bash those who actually are willing to look into it, why should I trust you?

[Wade]

So what would you recommend for me to do when I have multiple people confiding personal information to me continually?
When a friend says they've been raped, they've been to doctors, they been to police and been brushed off?
How about the men calling me for help who have been to numerous professional counsellors, doctors, rehab, and etc. and yet they call me? Should I tell all these people to leave me alone? Yes two of them drank themselves to death in the last two months and it would be easier to brush them off and not experience this anguish.

But if you have any idea WHO CHRIST IS - NOT A PROFESSIONAL!!! HE was unlearned! Then the love of Christ would constrain every Christian to be a friend and listen to these people! I'm not walking away from someone asking for help after all these professionals fail - and believe me I know a bunch of people telling me they are going to professional counselors - and most commonly these counsellors are telling these people to focus on making themselves happy... They are not receiving biblically sound advice in being encouraged to focus on self! This is not the Way to rest and peace!

I had a whole reply typed out but it took me so long that MN logged me out and I lost everything. I don't have the energy to try to type everything out again right now. Sorry.

I don't plan to try to retype anything I wrote earlier. I am emotionally and physically exhausted and I need to step away from this conversation for awhile.
It must have been difficult learning that two people you tried to help drank themselves to death. I'll try to remember to pray that God would give you wisdom when dealing with the people who come to you for help and give comfort to you when you experience loss.

I'll admit I'm a bit emotional too. When two weeks ago your on your hands and knees cleaning up after someone who hasn't bathed or cleaned themselves or their trailer in over three months as they laugh at you and the love of Christ. And they called YOU for help after ALL the "professionals" were unable to help. And you find Christmas supper your wife made up just for him and sent you off on Christmas day to spend time with him after he got out of jail and none of his family, friends, or three ex-wifes wants anything to do with him. And his neighbor calls during that time saying you are a bad friend because you refuse to support him getting booze. Then at work you are further mocked for not getting him booze. Then two days later someone brought him booze and he drinks himself to death. And then the day after you find out about his death you have a YWAM missionary who you used to house church who is the husband of your wifes best friend calls you and rails on you that you aren't born again because you attend a Mennonite church...

His death is almost two months to the day after another friend drank himself to death who had been raped by his brothers, beating with a board that had nails sticking out of it, he said his mother never beat him but rather crucified him and I could go on and on... The system and professionals spit these people out like past due food.

Do you have any idea what it is like to go through getting a call from these people as a last hope after the "professionals" made it worse? Do you have any idea what it is like to feel so helpless in being the only person a suicidal person is willing to talk to? - My flesh DOESN'T want to do this either!
Do you have any idea the burden, the mourning, the anguish and compassion of Christ to pour your love upon the completely forsaken in society to have others mock you and tell you you are wrong for loving these people?

[Josh]

Aurien,

I think it’s safe to assume that Soloist was professionally trained in the military and also handled this situations to the highest standards of government and military ethics.

At some point, you advise a young sailor who just got mugged whilst drunk that they should henceforth avoid getting so drunk they end up in dangerous situations. That doesn’t excuse the mugger - but it does help the victim not get victimised again.

I don’t think the situations I’ve dealt with in plain circles are anything close to that, though. I have witnessed a young woman manipulate an older man and then years later successfully portray herself as a victim, but I don’t think this is the norm - and my advice to the man? Stop putting yourself in a situation where you can get portrayed as an abuser.

With that said, in every situation we need to consider that an accused might be innocent. In my opinion the plain world tends to lean way too far in this direction, but it doesn’t mean every accuser is automatically being 100% truthful, particularly once such accusations are taken more seriously and victims are punished less for speaking up.

[Aurien]

Since none of you have been in the military... Don't presume to judge my response to this woman. She went to a hotel on a holiday weekend with a single bed with a single male, her boyfriend. The hotel party was well known and taught in the military as the place to go... I was very well trained and my personal views were not stated once to this woman and I felt sorry for her. But I wasn't saying she was guilty of a crime or worthy of being stoned. You really have no concept of the military.
My wife was invited to one of these hotel parties, she knew what it was due to military training and declined. This training was repeated at every single training command and this lady was a student at the time. (so was her boyfriend)
Clearly distortion is the name of the game here... If thats how you chose to present evidence and then bash those who actually are willing to look into it, why should I trust you?

No distortion is not the name of the game here. I don't believe I've bashed you either. I used your own words to paraphrase the story of the woman caught in adultery. I was not saying that you thought the woman in the military was guilty of a crime or deserved to be stoned. I was trying to contrast the way you spoke about this military woman with the attitude Jesus had towards the woman caught in adultery.

[Aurien]

I had a whole reply typed out but it took me so long that MN logged me out and I lost everything. I don't have the energy to try to type everything out again right now. Sorry.

I don't plan to try to retype anything I wrote earlier. I am emotionally and physically exhausted and I need to step away from this conversation for awhile.
It must have been difficult learning that two people you tried to help drank themselves to death. I'll try to remember to pray that God would give you wisdom when dealing with the people who come to you for help and give comfort to you when you experience loss.

I'll admit I'm a bit emotional too. When two weeks ago your on your hands and knees cleaning up after someone who hasn't bathed or cleaned themselves or their trailer in over three months as they laugh at you and the love of Christ. And they called YOU for help after ALL the "professionals" were unable to help. And you find Christmas supper your wife made up just for him and sent you off on Christmas day to spend time with him after he got out of jail and none of his family, friends, or three ex-wifes wants anything to do with him. And his neighbor calls during that time saying you are a bad friend because you refuse to support him getting booze. Then at work you are further mocked for not getting him booze. Then two days later someone brought him booze and he drinks himself to death. And then the day after you find out about his death you have a YWAM missionary who you used to house church who is the husband of your wifes best friend calls you and rails on you that you aren't born again because you attend a Mennonite church...

His death is almost two months to the day after another friend drank himself to death who had been raped by his brothers, beating with a board that had nails sticking out of it, he said his mother never beat him but rather crucified him and I could go on and on... The system and professionals spit these people out like past due food.

Do you have any idea what it is like to go through getting a call from these people as a last hope after the "professionals" made it worse? Do you have any idea what it is like to feel so helpless in being the only person a suicidal person is willing to talk to? - My flesh DOESN'T want to do this either!
Do you have any idea the burden, the mourning, the anguish and compassion of Christ to pour your love upon the completely forsaken in society to have others mock you and tell you you are wrong for loving these people?

Wow, that's a lot to deal with.
I don't know what it's like to go through getting a call from people like this. I do know what it's like to feel completely hopeless and suicidal. My help each time has been a combination of God and professionals, and on rare occasion, a family member. I know there are some professionals out there who have no business trying to help people. I've met those kinds of professionals. I'd say in those cases your compassion for others probably trumps all the formal training those professionals received. There are also some good professionals out there. I've been fortunate enough to know a few of them.
I'll pray that God will send both good professionals into your life and other Christians to support you.

[Wade]

If rape is 100% the blame of the rapist then no one has any business blaming CAM or anyone else for that matter.

[silentreader]

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

I'm not sure that this John 8 passage is a good one to illustrate your point. If you read what Jesus actually said then she was not an innocent victim.

No, she was not totally innocent. But the Law required that BOTH the man & the woman be stoned. They said that she was "caught in the act". Well, then, why did they let the man go free? I hope this is not offensive to women here, because I do not mean it in that way. But because of how God created woman, the man is the more responsible participant. It was an affront to the Law that the man was not also brought out and publicly disgraced, and, if she was to be stoned that day, he also. I would maintain that in that sense she was a victim.

I'm pretty sure that I understood that. And who is to say that what Jesus did was not also an intended encouragement for her at least as guilty partner to step forward and take his appropriate place by her side. But that was adultery.
As far as sexual assault goes though, just because the female victim made poor choices does not lessen the blame put on the one who raped her.

[temporal1]

[imps://i.imgur.com/2OUwfhG

If rape is 100% the blame of the rapist then no one has any business blaming CAM or anyone else for that matter.

Well, if i understand, these threads relating to CAM are not about rape in general, of adults.

These discussions are specific to serial predatory adults abusing positions of authority, in homes, churches, church based organizations, preying on children+teens who are captive and vulnerable.

Your response to the graphic merits discussion.
i don’t believe it applies to the CAM, or even culture, situations in question in these threads, soon to be a year on this forum.

Unfortunately, when the thinking behind the graphic is not applied to these serial predators of children, the result has been rapists go free to continue to abuse. They are cagey. It’s now revealed, these perpetrators (typically) have multiples of victims. It seems unusual for there to be 1 victim. Thus, the word, “serial.”

i am so sorry to say.

[Wade]

Since none of you have been in the military... Don't presume to judge my response to this woman. She went to a hotel on a holiday weekend with a single bed with a single male, her boyfriend. The hotel party was well known and taught in the military as the place to go... I was very well trained and my personal views were not stated once to this woman and I felt sorry for her. But I wasn't saying she was guilty of a crime or worthy of being stoned. You really have no concept of the military.
My wife was invited to one of these hotel parties, she knew what it was due to military training and declined. This training was repeated at every single training command and this lady was a student at the time. (so was her boyfriend)
Clearly distortion is the name of the game here... If thats how you chose to present evidence and then bash those who actually are willing to look into it, why should I trust you?

I have a co-worker/neighbour/friend that was a Sentinel in the Canadian military. He lost a son at three days old and got mad at God and joined the military but found through his pain he was able to minister to the emotional needs of others and became someone suicidal people came to. Unfortunately, he also said 10 of his close comrades have committed suicide just in the last 4 years. I think few understand the strain each is facing.

[Soloist]

I'll repeat my question... Where is the hush agreement if CAM refused to deal?