Randal Martin on the CAM/Jeriah Debacle

[Wade]

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

I think you maybe misunderstanding Soloist...

For all the woman adult rape victims I have tried to help and counsel - nearly every one of them have either placed themselves into a very poor situation by consentually going somewhere privately during a party where drinking was involved and/or the victim returns willingly to have sex with the man again at some point even after being raped...

The mentally of an abuse victim can therefore be very challenging to relate to.

Sometimes the victims seem to stop feeling any anger toward the perpetrator(s) and may direct that anger towards others ( I think this is a natural insecurity instinct as a form of protection to test and see who they can trust - but is extremely hard on the one helping to understand).

Now in terms of childhood abuse victims my experience is far less but I would hazard to guess to think that even though no child abuse is consentual there are some similar struggles in regards to the victim relating to and finding people they can trust because of not wanting to be so vulnerable again which can make the situation hard for us to understand at times. - I am sorry we are not always more sensitive.

I am not misunderstanding Soloist.

Those women are still victims. Even if someone places themselves into what you believe is a poor situation they still have the right to not be sexually assaulted.

Have you been formally trained regarding sexual assault and trauma? If not have you at least tried to educate yourself regarding sexual assault and trauma? From your posts it doesn't seem that you have and I'm concerned that you may be inadvertently doing more damage to victims of sexual assault. Your intentions seem to be good but without the proper knowledge those intentions can be very damaging. I may have the best intentions in the world when trying to help a heart attack victim but without proper training I may end up causing their death. The same goes for emotional and psychological traumas. They affect the functions of the brain, and abuse victims need someone to help them who has training in abuse and trauma.
Please note that I'm not saying that you shouldn't pray with/for victims or share Jesus with them, but there's a time for that and there's a time to know your limitations and recommend that someone seek professional help.

So what would you recommend for me to do when I have multiple people confiding personal information to me continually?
When a friend says they've been raped, they've been to doctors, they been to police and been brushed off?
How about the men calling me for help who have been to numerous professional counsellors, doctors, rehab, and etc. and yet they call me? Should I tell all these people to leave me alone? Yes two of them drank themselves to death in the last two months and it would be easier to brush them off and not experience this anguish.

But if you have any idea WHO CHRIST IS - NOT A PROFESSIONAL!!! HE was unlearned! Then the love of Christ would constrain every Christian to be a friend and listen to these people! I'm not walking away from someone asking for help after all these professionals fail - and believe me I know a bunch of people telling me they are going to professional counselors - and most commonly these counsellors are telling these people to focus on making themselves happy... They are not receiving biblically sound advice in being encouraged to focus on self! This is not the Way to rest and peace!

[Wade]

In my experience it is the sexual abuse victims that wholeheartedly give to this mentality that never find peace, reconciliation, and release in forgiveness. This kind of attitude is very detrimental and you should stop. Because it is focused wrong - what is appropriate when dealing with victims is rather to say, "You are Not responsible for this.". People need to understand their own responsibility or lack thereof more than pointing fingers.

[temporal1]

Wade:
.. I'm not walking away from someone asking for help after all these professionals fail ..

presently, rules+restrictions on counselors at all levels are so great, the continual fear of litigation, etc., i have my doubts about expectations of professionals. even if they are competent and willing, they are hamstrung by human law - as is the case pretty much everywhere.

years ago, i had a great experience with a professional. i’m not sure he was Christian. he did not object to my faith.
later, i wondered what made him the way he was?? eventually, it dawned on me, he was old enough to be beyond being controlled by paying off school debt, worry about being fired, etc. he was experienced, intelligent, real, and free.

he was FREE to be frank+honest, not dancing around obligations to others and to protect himself from litigation.

these have become BIG problems in our culture. not just in reference to counseling.
but it is TRAGIC in counseling. where the truly needy sincerely seek help, yet are not likely to get anything like it.

Wade, you have no restrictions. you can just go ahead and share Truth. and wonder why professional others before you did not.

[Wade]

Wade:
.. I'm not walking away from someone asking for help after all these professionals fail ..

presently, rules+restrictions on counselors at all levels are so great, the continual fear of litigation, etc., i have my doubts about expectations of professionals. even if they were competent and willing, they are hamstrung by human law - as is the case pretty much everywhere.

years ago, i had a great experience with a professional. i’m not sure he was Christian. he did not object to my faith.
later, i wondered what made him the way he was?? eventually, it dawned on me, he was old enough to be beyond being controlled by paying off school debt, worry about being fired, etc.

he was FREE to be frank+honest, not dancing around obligations to others and to protect himself from litigation.

these have become BIG problems in our culture. not just in reference to counseling.
but it is TRAGIC in counseling. where the truly needy sincerely seek help, yet are not likely to get anything like it.

Wade, you have no restrictions. you can just go ahead and share Truth. and wonder why professional others before you did not.

A friend text this morning that he made to day 7 barely... Without alcohol, drugs, or cigarettes.

When I seen him two days ago he said if he doesn't text then I better get on him to make sure he is still pressing forward.

I said, " So, did you just make me your accountability partner?"

His reply, "Yup!!. You are the only person in my life that goes out of you're way to ask me how I'm doing and genuinely cares."

...

This is a 25 year old man that has gone 2.5years sober with AA, goes to counselling, and has taken(and still could be) anti-depressants. He has been standing on the top of a bridge ready to jump...

After he has gone through all these "paid professional" all he wants is someone who cares sincerely instead of being paid to care. You really hit on something t1 with how people tick and pay attention to why people seek help and the motive they see behind the helper.

[silentreader]

I was a sexual assault advocate in the Navy... I actually dealt with two cases and both times... no offense to them, they were being stupid. Going to a hotel room alone with your boyfriend on a 4 day weekend... The other one was so out there that I pitied the guy. I didn't stay with him because he ended up requesting a woman which was understandable. One remained private, the other unfortunately was reported to the quarterdeck. She would have rather it remained private...

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

I'm not sure that this John 8 passage is a good one to illustrate your point. If you read what Jesus actually said then she was not an innocent victim.

[Aurien]

I think you maybe misunderstanding Soloist...

For all the woman adult rape victims I have tried to help and counsel - nearly every one of them have either placed themselves into a very poor situation by consentually going somewhere privately during a party where drinking was involved and/or the victim returns willingly to have sex with the man again at some point even after being raped...

The mentally of an abuse victim can therefore be very challenging to relate to.

Sometimes the victims seem to stop feeling any anger toward the perpetrator(s) and may direct that anger towards others ( I think this is a natural insecurity instinct as a form of protection to test and see who they can trust - but is extremely hard on the one helping to understand).

Now in terms of childhood abuse victims my experience is far less but I would hazard to guess to think that even though no child abuse is consentual there are some similar struggles in regards to the victim relating to and finding people they can trust because of not wanting to be so vulnerable again which can make the situation hard for us to understand at times. - I am sorry we are not always more sensitive.

I am not misunderstanding Soloist.

Those women are still victims. Even if someone places themselves into what you believe is a poor situation they still have the right to not be sexually assaulted.

Have you been formally trained regarding sexual assault and trauma? If not have you at least tried to educate yourself regarding sexual assault and trauma? From your posts it doesn't seem that you have and I'm concerned that you may be inadvertently doing more damage to victims of sexual assault. Your intentions seem to be good but without the proper knowledge those intentions can be very damaging. I may have the best intentions in the world when trying to help a heart attack victim but without proper training I may end up causing their death. The same goes for emotional and psychological traumas. They affect the functions of the brain, and abuse victims need someone to help them who has training in abuse and trauma.
Please note that I'm not saying that you shouldn't pray with/for victims or share Jesus with them, but there's a time for that and there's a time to know your limitations and recommend that someone seek professional help.

So what would you recommend for me to do when I have multiple people confiding personal information to me continually?
When a friend says they've been raped, they've been to doctors, they been to police and been brushed off?
How about the men calling me for help who have been to numerous professional counsellors, doctors, rehab, and etc. and yet they call me? Should I tell all these people to leave me alone? Yes two of them drank themselves to death in the last two months and it would be easier to brush them off and not experience this anguish.

But if you have any idea WHO CHRIST IS - NOT A PROFESSIONAL!!! HE was unlearned! Then the love of Christ would constrain every Christian to be a friend and listen to these people! I'm not walking away from someone asking for help after all these professionals fail - and believe me I know a bunch of people telling me they are going to professional counselors - and most commonly these counsellors are telling these people to focus on making themselves happy... They are not receiving biblically sound advice in being encouraged to focus on self! This is not the Way to rest and peace!

I had a whole reply typed out but it took me so long that MN logged me out and I lost everything. I don't have the energy to try to type everything out again right now. Sorry.

[Aurien]

I was a sexual assault advocate in the Navy... I actually dealt with two cases and both times... no offense to them, they were being stupid. Going to a hotel room alone with your boyfriend on a 4 day weekend... The other one was so out there that I pitied the guy. I didn't stay with him because he ended up requesting a woman which was understandable. One remained private, the other unfortunately was reported to the quarterdeck. She would have rather it remained private...

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

I'm not sure that this John 8 passage is a good one to illustrate your point. If you read what Jesus actually said then she was not an innocent victim.

I did read what Jesus actually said to the woman, and I think it's a perfect one to illustrate my point because Soloist's appears to believe that the sexual assault victims he dealt with in the Navy were not innocent either. My point is that Jesus knew she wasn't innocent and he could have condemned her, but he showed her compassion instead.

[silentreader]

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

I'm not sure that this John 8 passage is a good one to illustrate your point. If you read what Jesus actually said then she was not an innocent victim.

I did read what Jesus actually said to the woman, and I think it's a perfect one to illustrate my point because Soloist's appears to believe that the sexual assault victims he dealt with in the Navy were not innocent either. My point is that Jesus knew she wasn't innocent and he could have condemned her, but he showed her compassion instead.

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood. Since Soloist was talking about sexual assault victims putting themselves in harm's way, I understood your responses to him in the posts following as suggesting that rape victims (above the age of consent at least) were never in any way and under any circumstances even somewhat culpable.
I was unsure how adultery fit into this scenario.

[Aurien]

I am not misunderstanding Soloist.

Those women are still victims. Even if someone places themselves into what you believe is a poor situation they still have the right to not be sexually assaulted.

Have you been formally trained regarding sexual assault and trauma? If not have you at least tried to educate yourself regarding sexual assault and trauma? From your posts it doesn't seem that you have and I'm concerned that you may be inadvertently doing more damage to victims of sexual assault. Your intentions seem to be good but without the proper knowledge those intentions can be very damaging. I may have the best intentions in the world when trying to help a heart attack victim but without proper training I may end up causing their death. The same goes for emotional and psychological traumas. They affect the functions of the brain, and abuse victims need someone to help them who has training in abuse and trauma.
Please note that I'm not saying that you shouldn't pray with/for victims or share Jesus with them, but there's a time for that and there's a time to know your limitations and recommend that someone seek professional help.

So what would you recommend for me to do when I have multiple people confiding personal information to me continually?
When a friend says they've been raped, they've been to doctors, they been to police and been brushed off?
How about the men calling me for help who have been to numerous professional counsellors, doctors, rehab, and etc. and yet they call me? Should I tell all these people to leave me alone? Yes two of them drank themselves to death in the last two months and it would be easier to brush them off and not experience this anguish.

But if you have any idea WHO CHRIST IS - NOT A PROFESSIONAL!!! HE was unlearned! Then the love of Christ would constrain every Christian to be a friend and listen to these people! I'm not walking away from someone asking for help after all these professionals fail - and believe me I know a bunch of people telling me they are going to professional counselors - and most commonly these counsellors are telling these people to focus on making themselves happy... They are not receiving biblically sound advice in being encouraged to focus on self! This is not the Way to rest and peace!

I had a whole reply typed out but it took me so long that MN logged me out and I lost everything. I don't have the energy to try to type everything out again right now. Sorry.

I don't plan to try to retype anything I wrote earlier. I am emotionally and physically exhausted and I need to step away from this conversation for awhile.
It must have been difficult learning that two people you tried to help drank themselves to death. I'll try to remember to pray that God would give you wisdom when dealing with the people who come to you for help and give comfort to you when you experience loss.

[Neto]

I was a sexual assault advocate in the Navy... I actually dealt with two cases and both times... no offense to them, they were being stupid. Going to a hotel room alone with your boyfriend on a 4 day weekend... The other one was so out there that I pitied the guy. I didn't stay with him because he ended up requesting a woman which was understandable. One remained private, the other unfortunately was reported to the quarterdeck. She would have rather it remained private...

John 8 (changed a bit to reflect Soloist's view)

2. At dawn he went to the temple again, and all the people were coming to him. He sat down and began to teach them.
3. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, making her stand in the center.
4. “Teacher,” they said to him, “this woman was caught in the act of committing adultery.
5. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”
6. They asked this to trap him, in order that they might have evidence to accuse him. Jesus stooped down and started writing on the ground with his finger.
7. When they persisted in questioning him, he stood up and said to them, “No offense to her, she was being stupid. Having sexual relations with a man who wasn't her husband...
8. Then he stooped down again and continued writing on the ground.
9. When they heard this, they picked up stones one by one, starting with the older men, and stoned her.

I'm not sure that this John 8 passage is a good one to illustrate your point. If you read what Jesus actually said then she was not an innocent victim.

No, she was not totally innocent. But the Law required that BOTH the man & the woman be stoned. They said that she was "caught in the act". Well, then, why did they let the man go free? I hope this is not offensive to women here, because I do not mean it in that way. But because of how God created woman, the man is the more responsible participant. It was an affront to the Law that the man was not also brought out and publicly disgraced, and, if she was to be stoned that day, he also. I would maintain that in that sense she was a victim.