Randal Martin on the CAM/Jeriah Debacle

[Soloist]

The proof is out there but I don't know how to share it so soloist can see I'm not a liar.

I'm not trying to call you a liar.

1 Tim 5: 19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Kris Kramer + Daniel Herr = two witnesses.

Okay, have they together gone to the church where the president of CAM attends to level this accusation for the church to hear? or have they left this for internet posts without legal standing? Have they contacted law enforcement?

Not making any judgement here, just looking to see if the Scriptures are being followed

[Soloist]

I want to clarify something, if someone came to me and said one of my church leaders stole from him, I would make every attempt to rectify this as I could even though only one person accused him.

By this, I would feel even if only 1 witness approached the church in question, given the nature of what Scripture says, I would feel it needed to examined regardless. It does however, say that there needs to be two or more witnesses and I would assume those are attending members...

[TruthSeeker]

I'm not trying to call you a liar.

Kris Kramer + Daniel Herr = two witnesses.

Okay, have they together gone to the church where the president of CAM attends to level this accusation for the church to hear? or have they left this for internet posts without legal standing? Have they contacted law enforcement?

Not making any judgement here, just looking to see if the Scriptures are being followed

What if they've been turned off at church for life?

[Soloist]

What if they've been turned off at church for life?

Then woe to them and the one who caused them to stumble...

[Josh]

Here's a relevant question. Is God's blessing on a ministry who has sent pedophiles into the field to abuse children? Ministries that I had trusted but were found to have corruption--be it sexual, financial, or power issues--never received another dollar from me, because I felt God's hand was no longer (if it ever was) on them.

If we're going to ignore the spiritual aspect of charitable groups, then why not give to secular organizations (I don't)? It's a lot worse to find wickedness in Christian ministries, right? And I think I can show examples from Scriptures where God held a whole group of His people accountable when a very few had committed the sin (even when the rest may not have known about it).

Or why not just give to your local church, where some accountability exists.

If I really wanted to send money to Haiti, my church has about 1,000 members there. I could send a donation to one of our congregations there. But generally our congregations there aren't looking for cash hand outs and in fact sending money and goods there indiscriminately can cause a lot of problems. A friend of ours did go there and volunteer her EMT/CNA/nurse type services at the clinic there and very much enjoyed her time. We paid for half of her plane ticket for an upcoming wedding as her trip she took down there was at her own expense. Seems like one of the best ways to help, as opposed to just writing checks to an organisation that is doing who knows what.

[Josh]

Okay, have they together gone to the church where the president of CAM attends to level this accusation for the church to hear? or have they left this for internet posts without legal standing? Have they contacted law enforcement?

Not making any judgement here, just looking to see if the Scriptures are being followed

I attempted to do so but was unsuccessful. My efforts in this area have had two kinds of results:

- The person in leadership I am talking to says they have already tried to deal with the situation, gotten nowhere, and have decided to cut ties.

- The people in leadership suddenly become difficult to talk to and cancel meetings with me. For example, this happened with Kenny Kuhns at the Beachy church in Middlefield.

So, yes, the scriptures are being followed. I would not cast my support to these allegations about people like Herr unless they had been.

Regarding what you said about William M., I had a long chat with the former bishop of my old church who still lives near me. He tried to start a mission in Australia. William McGrath molested one of the boys who was at the mission and it completely destroyed the mission work there.

When my brother and his wife became committed believers and started attending a conservative Mennonite church, this retired bishop one day met them and pulled them aside and told them to beware, as there are many pedophiles openly operating within conservative Mennonite circles. (He didn't know it was my brother.) They had a good long chat about it.

I strongly believe the word of this bishop along with the others who have spoken up about McGrath's proclivities. Keep in mind this tragedy all happened within my own back yard. I spent the winter within walking distance from McGrath's grave - one day on a walk to the nearby Beachy church where he is buried, I noticed it, and shared the sad tale. Some of his children live locally here, I used to go to youth group with his grandchildren, my nieces and nephew still go to youth group with them. It is not a light thing that I do when I speak publicly about this.

[Ernie]

I have been very emotionally and mentally raw lately.

Speaking out about Grandpa Harold Herr and knowing no justice will probably ever be served and that he (a pedo) is loved and lifted high in the plain community.

I don't know anyone who lifts him high. I already explained that CAM quit selling his book and that they feel there is a cloud hanging over him due the reports of his immoral behavior.

To people defending CAM so hard I ask again....
Would you still be defending CAM this hard if I was your son or daughter telling you these things?

Yes. I'm defending the good people at CAM and saying that it is not fair to lump all 1500 CAM associates into one stereotype.

[TruthSeeker]

I have been very emotionally and mentally raw lately.

Speaking out about Grandpa Harold Herr and knowing no justice will probably ever be served and that he (a pedo) is loved and lifted high in the plain community.

I don't know anyone who lifts him high. I already explained that CAM quit selling his book and that they feel there is a cloud hanging over him due the reports of his immoral behavior.

I'm guessing you're referencing CAM, Ernie, when you say "I don't know anyone who lifts him high"? If so, has Stanely Fox changed his perspective on HH? I do understand if you have no way of knowing. Not so much attempting to grill you personally as to point out the persistent, pervasive nature of the unwavering support HH has received for decades despite a "cloud of concerns" hanging over him.

Here in the heart of Lancaster County, specifically amongst Charity folks, some proponents continue defending HH and view all allegations of sexual abuse as fabrications of his late ex. Could include several quotes but doing so would breach confidentiality.

[steve-in-kville]

Not sure where to go with this, if anywhere at all. This was an experience we had back maybe 5 years ago. It was mennonite church. This is exactly how sexual abuse is covered up and smoothed over. If Robert wants this removed, I will not balk. But this, often times, is the culture that exists. This is why things don't get approached. (This has been cross posted on my blog a few hours ago).

*****************************

(Based on a true event)

It was a Tuesday evening. The husband and wife were ushered in to the small Sunday School room. In the middle was a wooden table. The mennonite preacher and his wife sat on one side. The husband & wife sat on the other. Typical interview questions were asked by the preacher, all relevant to the husband and wife (and their family) becoming members of the church. It all was kept light and quite informal.

Finally, the preacher asked if there were any questions. The husband and wife give each other a quick glance. The husband spoke up and inquired about certain rumors of a sexual assault that took place within the church’s ranks, about ten years past. A young lady, now in her early 20’s, has become quite vocal on social media about being assaulted in her home as a young teen.

“There were allegations but nothing held water.”

Really? The victim seems pretty sure of herself.

“She was young. She was just a silly girl. She was confused.”

Okay…. Was it even investigated?

“I would imagine it was… I wasn’t ordained then.”

By this time, the preachers wife shifts in her chair, staring down at the table.

“Why do you need to know this?? Who have you been talking to?”

The husband confides he had spoken to an immediate family member that confirmed the abuse.

“You can’t believe anything he says! He left the church years ago! He has known “issues”!”

Wow. So why did the victim spend time in a rehab facility?

“Did the mother tell you that?? She has a habit of spinning yarns you know!”

Super wow at this point. The husband asks about another similar situation, one more recent.

“We interviewed the father. He says he didn’t do it. No point pursuing it”

So…. Did you talk to the victim?

“There was no victim. The father is a founding member of this congregation! He served in the mission field! He was in the lot for minister once! No reason to tarnish a good reputation!”

By now the husband and wife look at each other, the preacher’s wife is obviously uneasy as she constantly fiddles with her prayer veil. She hasn’t looked up since this line of questioning began. The preacher himself has become quite rattled, his replies have become sharp and snappy, most agitated. That was all the answers the husband and wife needed to hear.

From this is gleaned:

The perpetrators are all upstanding church members.

The victims are always silly (or confused) or don’t exist.

The witnesses all have “issues” and/or are liars.

Unbeknownst to the husband and wife, a huge can of worms was opened….

…. to be continued.

[Biblical Anabaptist]

I have been very emotionally and mentally raw lately.

Speaking out about Grandpa Harold Herr and knowing no justice will probably ever be served and that he (a pedo) is loved and lifted high in the plain community.

I don't know anyone who lifts him high. I already explained that CAM quit selling his book and that they feel there is a cloud hanging over him due the reports of his immoral behavior.

I'm guessing you're referencing CAM, Ernie, when you say "I don't know anyone who lifts him high"? If so, has Stanely Fox changed his perspective on HH? I do understand if you have no way of knowing. Not so much attempting to grill you personally as to point out the persistent, pervasive nature of the unwavering support HH has received for decades despite a "cloud of concerns" hanging over him.

Here in the heart of Lancaster County, specifically amongst Charity folks, some proponents continue defending HH and view all allegations of sexual abuse as fabrications of his late ex. Could include several quotes but doing so would breach confidentiality.

As of March 1 Stanley Fox terminated his employment with CAM. I am curious to know if that is related to the HH situation.