Today at the gun shop:

[Ken]

you have no regard for me, you describe personal amusement at those on this forum who see things differently from you. how nice for you. this is your right. do enjoy yourself.

i defer to Mark Robinson, Robert, Thomas Sowell, and many many others who dare to step away from the prevailing script.

for myself and my family, for everyone on this forum, and for most overall, violent physical harm or violent death is much more likely to come from misuse of smartphones while driving, bicycling, walking, etc., than gun violence. as Robert briefly noted above, there are several causes of death that outnumber gun violence. crickets.

To the contrary. I have great regard for you and everyone else willing to come express their opinions in public. I expect you would quickly get bored here too if this place was just an echo chamber of your own opinions. I know I would be.

That doesn't mean I agree with the notion that there is something wrong pushing for common sense gun laws or enforcing them if passed. And especially with the notion that there is something "troubling" about Christians pushing for measures to reduce the tsunami of weapons plaguing our society.

As for cell phones? I agree entirely with the dangers posed by cell phones and driving. I'm not convinced, however that cell phone-using pedestrians are a deadly plague. Although cell phone selfie-related deaths seems to be on the rise, especially in India and Russia.



Still, only 256 people have reportedly died from taking selfies worldwide. The worldwide death toll due to firearms is over 250,000 per year of which the US accounts for almost 40,000.

[temporal1]

As for cell phones? I agree entirely with the dangers posed by cell phones and driving.

I'm not convinced, however that cell phone-using pedestrians are a deadly plague. Although cell phone selfie-related deaths seems to be on the rise, especially in India and Russia.

you are denying the spirit of your initial response to me. ok.

in my imagination, if education+training and min ages were required for smartphone use/ownership, this might look like RULES OF THE ROAD for motor vehicle drivers. rules are included for pedestrians and others using public roadways.
it’s a lot about general education+training. esp minors.

smartphones, with screens+cameras on everything, ushered in lots of new problems.
basic cellphones, esp without cameras, don’t cause nearly the problems. esp among young people.
cellphones were the gateway drug.

not long ago, some CMs described they were allowed (by their churches) basic cellphone use, but were required to scratch-out or paint over camera lenses. for under 21, why not? basic cellphones are functional.

i believe the industry is trying to eliminate basic cellphones. parents should be demanding more.

i think it deserves serious dialogue. smartphones are not just fun gadgets. they are way more than that.
and too often cause injury or death.

[Ken]

you are denying the spirit of your initial response to me. ok.

Oh, come on. It's called back and forth. When you respond to what I wrote with:

i’m saddened at numbers of Christians clamoring to use gov “force of the sword” to beat swords into plowshares.
not at all cognizant of what they’re doing. “not i!”

You should expect some pushback.

Are you really truly saddened by Christians who advocate for a reduction in the numbers of weapons of war in this world? Are you instead cheered when firearms sales go up as is the actual subject of this thread?

[Robert]

Are you really truly saddened by Christians who advocate for a reduction in the numbers of weapons of war in this world?

This is what I think is not taking the full step. We should advocate for nonviolent actions. Guns are part of that, but so is screaming and yelling at our neighbors. By singling out guns, we miss the core of what Jesus calls us to which is loving our enemies and responding with compassion. If we do this, then we will not use a gun to harm someone. We will not use a car to harm someone. We will not use a rock to harm someone.

Guns are a symptom, not the root cause. Let's address the root cause and every person can own 100 guns and it will not matter.

[Ken]

Are you really truly saddened by Christians who advocate for a reduction in the numbers of weapons of war in this world?

This is what I think is not taking the full step. We should advocate for nonviolent actions. Guns are part of that, but so is screaming and yelling at our neighbors. By singling out guns, we miss the core of what Jesus calls us to which is loving our enemies and responding with compassion. If we do this, then we will not use a gun to harm someone. We will not use a car to harm someone. We will not use a rock to harm someone.

Guns are a symptom, not the root cause. Let's address the root cause and every person can own 100 guns and it will not matter.

I'm curious what you think guns are a symptom of? Evil? Hate? Violence? Lack of Christian love?

I tend to agree that they are a symptom of a lot of ills in our society. Which is why I no longer keep them around. I used to have quite the collection going back all the way to high school. But after I stopped hunting I realized the only reason to keep them around anymore was to kill. Yes, they are nothing more than tools. Just like a hammer. But how does the saying go? When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail? I also don't keep drugs or liquor in the house and avoid bars. Only watch a limited amount of TV. Keep most junk food out of the house lest it tempt my kids. And do a lot of other small things to try and live an upstanding and ethical life.

[Sudsy]

Are you really truly saddened by Christians who advocate for a reduction in the numbers of weapons of war in this world?

This is what I think is not taking the full step. We should advocate for nonviolent actions. Guns are part of that, but so is screaming and yelling at our neighbors. By singling out guns, we miss the core of what Jesus calls us to which is loving our enemies and responding with compassion. If we do this, then we will not use a gun to harm someone. We will not use a car to harm someone. We will not use a rock to harm someone.

Guns are a symptom, not the root cause. Let's address the root cause and every person can own 100 guns and it will not matter.

Amen but in so doing I hope you don't look like your avatar.

[Robert]

I'm curious what you think guns are a symptom of? Evil? Hate? Violence? Lack of Christian love?

Guns are a tool. It can be used for good or bad. They are inanimate. The symbolize nothing. Some like them and some do not. Being free to choose for oneself is important to me. If I can choose that, then I know my rights given by God are not taken or going to be taken.

I, myself, am not a gun owner. I am a gun borrower. My daughter has a .22 rifle and I keep it for her. I have one box of shells. I have no plans to use them. If something does happen and we loose the ability have meat at the grocer, I know I can get some. Only reason why I have borrowed it. No, I am not that confident in the government that I will always have food accessible. Reason why we are planting a garden this year too. If it gets real bad, I can shoot the rabbits eating in my garden.

I see no reason why I need to tell the government I have it. I don't tell the government I have 3 shovels and 5 hammers either. It is none of their business.

[Neto]

I'm curious what you think guns are a symptom of? Evil? Hate? Violence? Lack of Christian love?

Guns are a tool. It can be used for good or bad. They are inanimate. The symbolize nothing. Some like them and some do not. Being free to choose for oneself is important to me. If I can choose that, then I know my rights given by God are not taken or going to be taken.

I, myself, am not a gun owner. I am a gun borrower. My daughter has a .22 rifle and I keep it for her. I have one box of shells. I have no plans to use them. If something does happen and we loose the ability have meat at the grocer, I know I can get some. Only reason why I have borrowed it. No, I am not that confident in the government that I will always have food accessible. Reason why we are planting a garden this year too. If it gets real bad, I can shoot the rabbits eating in my garden.

I see no reason why I need to tell the government I have it. I don't tell the government I have 3 shovels and 5 hammers either. It is none of their business.

Well, now they know. They might also want to know how many hoes and rakes you have.

[temporal1]

My responses to Ken above were moved to the Briar Patch. Pages 32+33. no objection.
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=136&start=310

i ran out of editing time, but wanted to add to the second post: regarding “by force of the sword”
i don’t believe this belongs in the BP: mods decide.

These words represent a lot to me. i’ve learned a lot on this forum. maybe i can help you.

i am deeply saddened at numbers of Christians, esp those led by pastors, who clamor after government and human law INSTEAD OF seeking after God’s Truth, Wisdom, esp through Jesus Christ. “gov as god” is normalized.

“the worst” in my view is widespread “systemic” ignorance.
it’s one matter to know Truth and reject it. it’s another matter to not ever know it, AND reject it without knowing.

it was only on this forum i began to learn the concept of “by force of the sword.”
as i now understand it, governments are uniquely charged with “force of the sword.”
every vote, every human law is actually “by force of the sword.”

when “gun laws” are passed, it’s by “force of the sword.” (Christians might recognize the irony.)

earthly governments are important. they serve important earthly functions.

they are not replacement for our 1 God in heaven. lines have been badly blurred in recent decades.
gov schools do nothing to correct, or put things in balance. or even to allow.

a personal example:
on Easter Sunday, our family enjoyed an informal 1 hour zoom gathering, mostly led by my 13 yr old grdaughter.
she has had a touching interest in Jesus and her faith from young, before she could read. thankfully, it has continued and grown with her. she began formal ed in a Catholic school, K-3. then moved “next door” to public school.
her first lesson was, “no speaking of Jesus or the Bible in school” she takes it to heart, respects others.

when i gave her the gospel reading from John to open our family gathering, she respectfully protested, “but, grammie, not everyone is Catholic!” etc. (she is careful to follow school rules.)

i assured her, “this is your family.
i know everyone in our family is not Catholic (i’m not, she knows, but we do not deliberate on it) -
everyone in your family knows about Jesus and the Bible. not all Bibles are exactly like Catholic Bibles, but every Christian knows about Easter and that Jesus lives!” so, it’s ok to read the gospel to your family on Easter.

i definitely grieve.

she was assured, and read beautifully.

she does not know she is reading to some staunch unbelievers in the family.
God willing, she will have to cross that bridge one day. hopefully, He will help her stand up to a hostile world, even within her family.

i grieve, but, at the same time, what a blessing there is in all this.
there is great value in these now “forced” conversations about how+why we choose to be Christians.
taking for granted is not the best way.

i pray the family unbelievers are touched by an innocent in Jesus.
we choose our steps, the Holy Spirit determines outcomes.

[RZehr]

If the population was actually being repressed aggressively, to the point that the population turned against the government, small arms would be a key part along with societal support in overthrowing the government. No indigenous government has ever been overthrown without small arms, have they? I say indigenous because of Gandhi & the British.

What would you consider to be the last successful indigenous revolution or civil war? There have been dozens of them every decade but how many were successful? Vietnam? That was a civil war not an indigenous revolution. North Vietnam had conventional armies with artillery, MIGs, anti-aircraft missiles, tanks, and and endless supply of heavy weaponry from the Soviet Union. In fact, North Vietnam had one of the largest standing armies in the world at that time. Maybe the Sandinistas in Nicaragua? That was in 1979 over 40 years ago.

The world's trouble spots have been dripping in weapons for decades. From the jungles of Colombia to Syria to Yemen to Afghanistan to a dozen or more countries in Africa. Crisis and violence often lingers on for decades. But how many have been successful. Especially fighting against a functional government? I worked in Central America in the late 1980s when the US was pouring weapons into the region in support of revolutionaries in Nicaragua and governments in Guatemala and El Salvador. Much of it wound up in the hands of criminal gangs via the black market. None of it was successful or led to any kind of free and stable result. The Central American refugee waves that we are seeing today is, in part, due to this.

I'm always surprised to see so much sentiment in favor of weapons, armed insurrection, and violence in an Anabaptist-leaning forum. What happened to Isaiah 2:4: "And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore."

I don't see much difference between a civil war and a revolution. Take a look at any of the internal conflicts in the last 100 years, successful or not, and I think that you'd see that small arms were undeniably crucial. It starts with small arms. Then, they do need to acquire larger weapons if they are going to be successful. They can get these from inside the country, or an external power decides to help them, which is probably necessary to success. Point is, without small arms the success is zero. As I said, the support of the population is necessary. And to get a large amount of the population on board, the government would have to be very bad indeed.

I expect in the case of armed rebellion against the government, to the point of war, there would be plenty of support externally. China, Russia, Iran, N. Korea would not mind seeing America slide into internal war. If the conditions were right, some countries would funnel advisors or arms or technology to the rebels.

As to your surprise to see so much pro-rebellion sentiment from Mennonites, this from me is not that. I'm trying to simply engage in the discussion in from a neutral, academic-ish position - probably much like you are. I am not pro-rebellion, or pro-2nd Amendment, or pro-violence.