The Collapse of America

A place to discuss history and historical events.
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temporal1

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by temporal1 »

boot:
What happened at the capitol was a really big deal.

What happened WOULD HAVE BEEN a big deal, if not just following the far more stunning “deals” of 4 YEARS’ obsessive derailing of a sitting president, AND MONTHS of violence+destruction spread over the U.S.

A few hours of a few people acting out in D.C. is nothing in comparison.
Add to that, reports are conflicting AND reports from the very same mainstream that was fully involved with 4 YEARS derailing, cannot hold any credibility at all.

Repeat all you want. You’re allowed.
No matter how loudly, how often repeated, for thinking people, the script does not add up.

You can’t have it both ways.

Well, maybe you can in a collapsed version of the U.S., but not in eternity.

The death knell was 2016-2020. With many willing participants.
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temporal1

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by temporal1 »

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:46 pm
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:34 pm This is what the conservative Mennonites believe. Like it or not, we generally hold a position against political involvement on both sides and pray for our leaders.
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:14 pm The point that we would make is it is what Jesus taught and this is where we tend to depart from each other. I'm sure there is much you and I would agree on, but the teachings of Jesus and His apostles are held up as how we should conduct ourselves. Nothing our country has done compares to the brutal behavior of the Roman Emperors. Yet we at that time were called to be obedient to them and give honor when due.
What do you mean when you say Mammon? perhaps you differ in understanding in this.
I think it's really important for us to start with Jesus and the disciples and to look at these questions in that context. In fact, wrestling with these questions of Kingdom versus secular powers is one of things that really sets all branches of Mennonites apart. Doing that on MennoNet is one of the best uses of this forum.
God have mercy.
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Bootstrap

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:54 pm
boot:
What happened at the capitol was a really big deal.

What happened WOULD HAVE BEEN a big deal, if not just following the far more stunning “deals” of 4 YEARS’ obsessive derailing of a sitting president, AND MONTHS of violence+destruction spread over the U.S.

A few hours of a few people acting out in D.C. is nothing in comparison.
Add to that, reports are conflicting AND reports from the very same mainstream that was fully involved with 4 YEARS derailing, cannot hold any credibility at all.

Repeat all you want. You’re allowed.
No matter how loudly, how often repeated, for thinking people, the script does not add up.

You can’t have it both ways.
I agree, you can't have it both ways.

Legal authorities should be respected. Hearings and accountability and elections, all of that, no matter which party looks good or bad as a result. Apparently, I don't belong to "thinking people", but my feeble attempts to think keep coming up with respect for the rule of law and rejection of partisan anger as an excuse for doing inexcusable things.

If you don't like corruption, investigating elected officials is not outrageous. I can understand Christians who choose not to engage in these questions at all. I can understand Christians who think this is in the jurisdiction of That Other Kingdom. But to me, at least, Christianity is not blind loyalty to political figures and outrage if they are investigated.

Let's put it this way: would you be outraged if there were investigations into the Biden Administration? If there were, do you think Democrats would be justified if they reject the results of the next election and storm the capitol? I hope not. Why should it be different for Trump and Republicans?
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temporal1

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by temporal1 »

Let's put it this way: would you be outraged if there were investigations into the Biden Administration?
If there were, do you think Democrats would be justified if they reject the results of the next election and storm the capitol?
I hope not. Why should it be different for Trump and Republicans?

You routinely post statements and ask questions based on unknown, presumed, or false premises.
It’s bizarre anyone responds to you. But, they do. over+over. seriously, it’s a big puzzle for me.

Here, you seem to suggest the only part of 4 YEARS’ railroading was limited to formal investigations. Ridiculous.
You suggest “everyone” (conservatives) opposed formal investigations. False.
For those who do not agree with your assertions, your following presumptions/assertions make no sense.
It’s nonsense. But it’s nonsense you are loyally wedded to.

Above, i think i described my view of why the brouhaha over the DC scuffle barely registers to thinking people.
i see nothing to be gained in repeating it. so soon.

:arrow: Certainly, i would far prefer the DC scuffle were “a big deal” in the U.S.!!! Without question.
Unfortunately, 4+YEARS of MUCH WORSE prevents that possibility.

The price of really awful behavior is: it invites more bad behavior. For thinking people, this is no surprise.

You cannot escape your posting history.
Not even by switching gears in attempt to suddenly become the forum’s iconic spiritual leader.
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temporal1

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by temporal1 »

OP
RZehr wrote: ↑Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:39 pm As I look at the general society in this country, I can't help but believe that this nation is writing its own obituary.

Economically, things are nuts. With this Covid economy, some businesses are thriving, and others dying. I see the welfare state is expanding to the extent that people can make more money on unemployment than working at jobs that they used to hold. Couple unemployment incentives with the crackdown on immigration, businesses simply cannot find people willing to work. $15 dollar per hour minimum wage isn't going to matter in the least, because anyone willing to show up on time, sober, and work is able to demand more that $15 anyway. Small businesses are shutting down profitable divisions simply because they cannot find help. Even fast food chain restaurants are cutting back on hours of business because they can't find workers. Some businesses can raise prices in order to cover the rise in employee wages, but not all of them can. It is to acute of a problem. Of course eventually, I suppose it will sort its self out, but in the meantime it pinches. Just in the last week, I've talked with many local small businesses from agriculture to manufacturing, to technology and communications, to hospitality to leisure to repair business, and the story is all the same. 1. Can't find help. 2. Can't get product. 3. Covid restrictions.
The thing is, the longer this goes on, the more our wages will rise (which in the long term has a good side), and our jobs will continue to move overseas (which isn't totally wonderful).
And we have the government pumping trillions of dollars into society, while simultaneously holding interest rates down. Inflation as traditionally gaged seems to be okay so far, but other things prices are raising rapidly. We've been pushing stimulus for what, 15-20 years now? And while is seems to have not cause out of control inflation immediately, it could be that it simply has taken this long to bring about the repercussions of stimulus activity.

Family units: Family is one thing that is of utmost importance. It is the the most basic building block. Few things in this country are really more important. When we look at the divorce rates, and the amount of people who now simply don't bother getting married in the first place, and the homosexual marriages, and the polygamy marriages - what we are losing in this country is priceless, and irreplaceable in the health and wellbeing of this country. Culturally speaking, we have lost the skill to be monogamous. We have lost, as a culture and society, the knowledge and the ability to have nuclear marriages that last for life. This cannot be stressed enough, when the postmortem examination of America is done. To many people are growing up without being equipped with the knowledge of how to make a marriage work. Lost in two generations. Who is going to teach them? Not their parents. Not their grandparents. No one is. They are growing up without learning how to give and take, and without knowing what commitment for life really looks like, and no one who can teach them. No knowledge of what marital conflict resolution might look like. Instead, the are being taught that individual "happiness" is what marriage is about, or "love", or various who knows what.
That extinction of the nuclear family and the collective loss of knowledge of how to do it, is a massive and fatal loss.

Demographics: When we consider how birth control and abortion have together created an incredible drop in birth/fertility rate from 5-6 in the mid 1800's to less than 2 today, we are creating for ourselves another problem. We as a nation are too selfish to have babies. And we are too selfish to permit immigration. We are literally extincting ourselves over time. But before that happens, demographically speaking, we will have a whole bunch of old people and few young people. And simultaneously, we are cultivating a socialist mentality that grooms young people to expect more from the government than they contribute. So when the piper is to be paid, we will have a generation that is old and needing to be taken care of, while the working generation is not about to give up their handouts, that they have become accustom to all their lives.

Religion: I saw a headline recently that said that less than half of American are affiliated with any religion, whether Christianity, Judaism, or Islam. So we now have a country that has not work ethic, no family, and no church. What is left? When things go bad, where do they turn? They have nothing. The only thing left is the government. That is their sole source of safety. And that will fail them badly, but not before demanding their sole allegiance. And when the government becomes accustom to complete authority, with the populaces blessing, really bad things will happen.

One saving grace for this country, is that its competitors are just a bad off in the demographic matter. China is a ticking demographic time bomb. Russia and Japan are already paying the piper. Europe is deciding to simply permit immigration.
RZehr:
As I look at the general society in this country,
I can't help but believe that this nation is writing its own obituary.

i pray for a way to respond far-far better-than what there has been. not just for myself.
i pray for “A GREAT WAVE OF BETTER.”

no career politician or media will lead anything like this. it’s not on their radar.

i pray folks discontinue buying into the destructive patterns set 2016-2020, and, they are trying to continue.
they found it PROFITABLE.

it’s up to loads of people to “stop buying.”

the world is made up of loads of decent people. we all need to stop buying.

- - - - -

after 2016, i hoped Dems would regroup, rethink, present a better plan. they did not.
they went on the relentless attack, “cobbling together” any and every special interest group they could, promising fortunes, etc. unfortunately, it paid off for them. now, everyone pays.

my present hope is for A GREAT WAVE OF BETTER, ‘cause, it is needed.

God offers 2 paths to “better.”
it can be wise choice before catastrophe, or it will be rebuilding from the ashes. :-|

review God’s very effective method with Gomer.
it ended His Way, and gloriously so. but not first without a load of pain.
Last edited by temporal1 on Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Falco Underhill
Posts: 998
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:30 pm
Affiliation: Hermit

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Falco Underhill »

Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:14 pm
Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 2:01 pm
That's fine if you believe that. It's also part of what I love about Mennos. Unfortunately, as I'm learning by listening, it's also blind in some ways, and not always totally harmless, especially if it enables the worst manifestations of Mammon. Just my opinion and something to think about.
As long as it is a dialog.

The point that we would make is it is what Jesus taught and this is where we tend to depart from each other. I'm sure there is much you and I would agree on, but the teachings of Jesus and His apostles are held up as how we should conduct ourselves. Nothing our country has done compares to the brutal behavior of the Roman Emperors. Yet we at that time were called to be obedient to them and give honor when due.
What do you mean when you say Mammon? perhaps you differ in understanding in this.

Did you accept the stimulus checks?
Are you aware of what Marx said about religion being the "opiate of the people?" Do you understand economic determinism and "material dialectics?"

Marx really did deify economics in a way no other system has before. Socialists really do believe economics determines everything by moving through "history" in the form of "material dialectics." Most people don't understand this.

And most people believe Jesus' teaching about Mammon means don't idolize money or the power that comes with it.

For a socialist there really is nothing but money and power. Naturally, they wouldn't put it that way. ;)

They would just call it "economic determinism" and "material dialectics" which for them is just "science".

How you see it depends on what lens you view it through.
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Bootstrap

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:11 pm Above, i think i described my view of why the brouhaha over the DC scuffle barely registers to thinking people.
If a violent takeover of the Capitol does not register, that's a real sign of collapse. Brouhaha? Seriously? Would it be a brouhaha if Democrats were doing it? Or if Black LIves activists were doing it? Would you yawn and excuse it and explain that it's really nothing?

Since you see me as a non-thinking person, maybe I am just a "bear of little brain". Could you please explain why you think this is just a minor brouhaha?
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Soloist

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Soloist »

Is it possible to have a discussion without this place becoming like reddit?

I postulate that what is happening on this forum over many discussion is a sign of the collapse of America. We can't reason with each other without manipulating everything. The moment a new leader comes in power, we spend so much time justifying behavior because of the behavior of the other camp during the last leader.

What if we withhold pre-judgement and partisan opinion and actually tried to work with each other? If that is not possible, then you might as well have war because that is the eventual outcome of these things as the divide deepens. Is that what the left and the right want? The two hands of our country no longer able to type together to form structure instead proceed to bash out garbled hate until the keyboard breaks and the paper rejected as unworthy of even publishing in tabloids?

Try going on Reddit on say, Oregon and post an unpopular opinion. Then try the same in Texas. The response is equally bias in opposite directions. No difference other then in talking points. We have seen the enemy, and the enemy is us.

This post is generally targeted, not at specific individuals.
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Soloist

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Soloist »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:28 pm
Are you aware of what Marx said about religion being the "opiate of the people?" Do you understand economic determinism and "material dialectics?"

Marx really did deify economics in a way no other system has before. Socialists really do believe economics determines everything by moving through "history" in the form of "material dialectics." Most people don't understand this.

And most people believe Jesus' teaching about Mammon means don't idolize money or the power that comes with it.

For a socialist there really is nothing but money and power. Naturally, they wouldn't put it that way. ;)

They would just call it "economic determinism" and "material dialectics" which for them is just "science".

How you see it depends on what lens you view it through.
I've heard the quote before and I really don't know that I can relate. If anything the walk of Christianity is a brutally difficult road paved with sweat and tears.

I only vaguely understand economic determinism and material dialectics.

Thanks for explaining your view of Mammon.
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Bootstrap

Re: The Collapse of America

Post by Bootstrap »

Falco Underhill wrote: ↑Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:28 pm Are you aware of what Marx said about religion being the "opiate of the people?" Do you understand economic determinism and "material dialectics?"

Marx really did deify economics in a way no other system has before. Socialists really do believe economics determines everything by moving through "history" in the form of "material dialectics." Most people don't understand this.
Sure. But the vast majority of people you are calling Marxists don't believe this stuff. Not even remotely. This is no different from calling all Republicans Nazis.

I think I understand Marxism. I think I understand Capitalism. I think both can be false gods. I think I understand partisan politics and conspiracy theories. I think they can become false gods too.

I am very deeply committed to the Kingdom of God and the Bible. I am also deeply committed to truth. Pursuing these things requires us to put aside some of the groupthink of the world around us. Forums like this one can help.
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