The Collapse of America

[Falco Underhill]

Good point Grace. It seems to me that Christians who ally themselves with socialists ally themselves with Mammon, regardless that Jesus said one could not do that and keep the faith at the same time. (Matthew 6:24)

Or the Republicans, or the Capitalists, Or the Democrats and so on and so on.

Let us be careful not to bad mouth the leaders and align ourselves politically with any mammon.

To me that's pious cop out asking everyone else to help you enable Mammon. No thank you.

[Soloist]

To me that's pious cop out asking everyone else to help you enable Mammon. No thank you.

He's so red, He's so blue, its amazing how often He agrees with you.

https://strengthtostrength.org/christia ... cs-part-1/
https://strengthtostrength.org/christia ... cs-part-2/

[temporal1]

i had no idea R Warnock was black. (that’s how it should be, right?) not knowing, not caring? “not judged by the color” ..

i did a brief search. he’s described as pastor+politician. yikes. an exaggerated example of a pastor leading his flock to government for answers. eyes wide open, folks.

i presume, if he happened to be white-looking, he would be flatly rejected+criticized for this. not rewarded.
on this forum, in thread after thread.

- - - - - -

The Collapse of America, in whatever form or degree, should not be confused with “the end of the world,” or,
most importantly, the end of authentic Christianity.

Jesus Christ will not fail.

Warnok is a supporter and advocate for the late James Hal Cone, a founding father of “black liberation theology”. Cone’s books are filled with divisive racial language, severe criticism of white society and white churches. Cone called for revolution, even to the point of violence if needed. Almost from the beginning, Cone intentionally infused his liberation theology with Marxist principles.

“Together, black religion and Marxist philosophy may show us the way to build a completely new society,” Cone a Warnok mentor, wrote in a 1980 paper for The Institute for Democratic Socialism.

Warnok is right that some of those signs and symbols of an old world order may be going away and it is a good thing, but based on his world view I don't think his new world looks any better, but probably looks worse.

It reminds me of the verses out of Matthew 12, where it talks about demons leaving a person.

" Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”.

If the " order of the past" in which Warnok talks about leaves,
will it be replaced with an even worse order?

Thank you. i had NO idea. i doubt DZ did when he quoted above? i do not know.

i do not use words like, “insurrection,” “storming,” etc. - because, again, i do not know.

what i know is, the U.S. endured 4 years of obsessive relentless railroading of a sitting president.
i know i cannot trust the same press and politicians that were dedicated to that singular goal to report on ANYTHING that has to do with that president, OR ANYTHING they detect is not in alignment with THEIR agenda.

the price of “the end justifies the means” is loss of credibility. and so much more.
this is just raw failed sinful human reasoning. primitive. not of Jesus Christ. governments have been built on it, sometimes big ones. they are not of Jesus Christ. governments come+go. U.S. founders were not dummies. they knew it and warned.

in the U.S., ropes, nooses, flags, are not illegal. the rhetoric certainly suggests these things are illegal, AND just a mention causes “no end” to the emotional response to them. wise leaders should warn against, not lead into!

the flag i believe is deliberate blasphemy, a gaudy rainbow, is proudly flown in the U.S., as it is world-wide.
that flag does not represent any state or nation. it represents sin. children are used to promote it.

i believe it’s a trap to allow ourselves to make objects/symbols, or people, so great in our lives.
it’s a form of idol worship, even if it is for reverse reasons. pastors should lead away from this.

it’s about mind control.
flags+objects are super-duper tools for organizing political blocs+cults, support+promotion of them.
messages are shared in a flash. a heartbeat. the wink of an eye. powerful.

(this reminds of Dr Alveda King’s article warning not to get overly distracted by statues.)
MLK, Jr’s living niece is as ignored as Thomas Sowell, and many others.

Alveda King tells protesters: 'If you find yourself going into a rage over a statue, step back'
https://www.foxnews.com/media/alveda-ki ... tatue-rage

imagine for one moment if the NYT decided to allow Dr A King a regular column. they dare not.
they know the power of Truth and hate it.

We have obvious clues as to the deep bias involved. Yet. The finest people are ignored, dedicated dividers promoted.

The public is so accustomed to it, it goes unquestioned -
or, questions that arise are criticized and dismissed as unworthy of anyone’s time. Talk about power.

So many clues. So much truth. Not enough. Jesus carried His heavy Cross. ‘cause so many refused to believe, or they believed and hated Him for it.

Thank you for your considered response, Grace.

[Falco Underhill]

To me that's pious cop out asking everyone else to help you enable Mammon. No thank you.

He's so red, He's so blue, its amazing how often He agrees with you.

https://strengthtostrength.org/christia ... cs-part-1/
https://strengthtostrength.org/christia ... cs-part-2/

Okay, just tell yourself a nice bedtime story about how above it all you are and go right back to sleep.

[Soloist]

Okay, just tell yourself a nice bedtime story about how above it all you are and go right back to sleep.

This is what the conservative Mennonites believe. Like it or not, we generally hold a position against political involvement on both sides and pray for our leaders.

[Falco Underhill]

Okay, just tell yourself a nice bedtime story about how above it all you are and go right back to sleep.

This is what the conservative Mennonites believe. Like it or not, we generally hold a position against political involvement on both sides and pray for our leaders.

That's fine if you believe that. It's also part of what I love about Mennos. Unfortunately, as I'm learning by listening, it's also blind in some ways, and not always totally harmless, especially if it enables the worst manifestations of Mammon. Just my opinion and something to think about.

[Soloist]

That's fine if you believe that. It's also part of what I love about Mennos. Unfortunately, as I'm learning by listening, it's also blind in some ways, and not always totally harmless, especially if it enables the worst manifestations of Mammon. Just my opinion and something to think about.

As long as it is a dialog.

The point that we would make is it is what Jesus taught and this is where we tend to depart from each other. I'm sure there is much you and I would agree on, but the teachings of Jesus and His apostles are held up as how we should conduct ourselves. Nothing our country has done compares to the brutal behavior of the Roman Emperors. Yet we at that time were called to be obedient to them and give honor when due.
What do you mean when you say Mammon? perhaps you differ in understanding in this.

Did you accept the stimulus checks?

[Bootstrap]

Good point Grace. It seems to me that Christians who ally themselves with socialists ally themselves with Mammon, regardless that Jesus said one could not do that and keep the faith at the same time. (Matthew 6:24)

Or the Republicans, or the Capitalists, Or the Democrats and so on and so on.

Let us be careful not to bad mouth the leaders and align ourselves politically with any mammon.

I agree that both both Marxism and Capitalism are materialistic, Mammon-based world views. In fact, Karl Marx clearly built on Adam Smith's teachings.

The Kingdom of God is not about Democrats versus Republicans. I have no idea whether Warnock is a socialist or not, I haven't read much of anything he has written. I am generally skeptical when someone is called a socialist or a fascist or a Marxist or a Nazi, I think people should check their facts carefully before making accusations like that.

There are some neo-Nazis and fascists and Marxists and socialists. I don't think they are a majority of either party. I don't think most Americans fall into these camps.

What happened at the capitol was an anomaly and not representative of millions of people who are conservative. But one has to wonder what a black liberationist such as Warnock supports. Is a lawmaker who supports neo-Marxist beliefs, who views the U.S. Constitution, our law system, and our free enterprise system, as corrupt and in need of a radical transformation, any better than the people that stormed the capitol?

How is Warnock any better when he supports unrestricted abortion on demand, gay marriage, transgender biological males competing with biological females, and a supporting a long list of other social repressive issues for this country?

What happened at the capitol was a really big deal. I agree that it does not represent true conservatives. As far as I know, Warnock did not violently attack the capitol, so he is better in at least that way.

You can be right about one thing and wrong about another. Some mass murderers have the right position on abortion. Warnock might be wrong about abortion but right about racism and nooses and storming the capitol. That's one problem with enmity narrative.

[temporal1]

Okay, just tell yourself a nice bedtime story about how above it all you are and go right back to sleep.

This is what the conservative Mennonites believe.
Like it or not, we generally hold a position against political involvement on both sides and pray for our leaders.

That's fine if you believe that. It's part of what I love about Mennos.
Unfortunately, it's also blind in some ways, and not totally harmless if it enables the worst manifestation of Mammon.
Just my opinion and something to think about.

Important discussion.
Lines are blurred, even in the CM world.

(i believe) all Christians are called to reject partisan politics, when it’s done, it resonates.

However, the world (and more lib Mennos) sees PASTORS LEADING politics .. MLK Jr opened the floodgates.
Just above, a man is cited for being a pastor AND elected political representative - quoted and respected.

(i sense) what Falco is speaking to is not that any party is INHERENTLY good or bad, but that at any given time, it’s likely one or the other will dominate - many believe when this happens, it’s well to call for balance. obviously, over decades, lib politicians+mainstream media have acquired inordinate power. in the past, it was opposite.

(Falco - close? .. or ??) ..

when the call is, “reject all equally,” the call often translates as either denial of reality, or, outright partisan politics (in denial).

soloist, the goal you describe is more easily said than lived. the world makes it as hard as it can to accomplish.
there are forum members who are consistently dedicated to the goal of rejection of all earthly politics. (not those with high post counts.) .. well. there is one .. Josh does pretty well in being consistent.

fwiw, in my mind,
when folks recite/quote biased political scripts, then without taking a breath, go right on to claiming neutrality, loyalty to eternity with Jesus, alone, the message is not convincing.

(to me) it’s saying, first, “i cast my vote,” then, “but, for Jesus, i don’t vote.”
it does not add up. “i’ll have my cake, and eat it, too.”

when it happens, i empathize. the goal IS the narrow way. not always easy. RZehr has spoken honestly about how difficult it is to maintain balance. he admits imperfection. Jesus calls us to His Way, not ours.

God will judge our hearts. that’s assured.

Falco, soloist?? am i far off? (from overall posts, i sense you are both seeking the higher ground.)

[Bootstrap]

This is what the conservative Mennonites believe. Like it or not, we generally hold a position against political involvement on both sides and pray for our leaders.

The point that we would make is it is what Jesus taught and this is where we tend to depart from each other. I'm sure there is much you and I would agree on, but the teachings of Jesus and His apostles are held up as how we should conduct ourselves. Nothing our country has done compares to the brutal behavior of the Roman Emperors. Yet we at that time were called to be obedient to them and give honor when due.
What do you mean when you say Mammon? perhaps you differ in understanding in this.

I think it's really important for us to start with Jesus and the disciples and to look at these questions in that context. In fact, wrestling with these questions of Kingdom versus secular powers is one of things that really sets all branches of Mennonites apart. Doing that on MennoNet is one of the best uses of this forum.