Ordaining women to offices of minister, bishop, elder, pastor, etc.

[ohio jones]

I think a New Testament case can be made for patriarchy, complementarianism, or egalitarianism, in the home or in the church, depending on which verses are emphasized. Rather than take a position, I prefer letting each concept have expression in its proper situation, as long as it does not violate the teachings of other NT scriptures for that situation. I lean towards complementarianism as a functional reality without embracing it as a theological reality.

Likewise, I think a NT case can be made for women being completely silent in the gathered assembly (except for singing), praying or speaking in the gathered assembly as long as it is not teaching, or praying and prophesying in the gathered assembly depending on which verses are emphasized. Again, without better clarity in the NT, I think God can bless honest efforts to follow all the teachings in the NT regarding women speaking in the church. If a person picks and chooses the verses that suit his worldview, and let those verses outrank all the other verses, I don't consider this an honest or honorable way of approaching the New Testament.

I mostly agree with this post...however, it isn't clear to me that there is a clear exception for singing if one goes with a hard literal approach of "being silent."

I'm glad we did not adopt Grebel's position on congregational singing, silencing not just the women but the men as well.

[joshuabgood]

JohnH, are you saying the gentile Christian converts were permitted to enter Jewish synagogues and worship and teach there, not on the Sabbath, but on the first day of the week?

Acts clearly recounts Paul meeting with the congregation at Lydia's house.

[joshuabgood]

I think a New Testament case can be made for patriarchy, complementarianism, or egalitarianism, in the home or in the church, depending on which verses are emphasized. Rather than take a position, I prefer letting each concept have expression in its proper situation, as long as it does not violate the teachings of other NT scriptures for that situation. I lean towards complementarianism as a functional reality without embracing it as a theological reality.

Likewise, I think a NT case can be made for women being completely silent in the gathered assembly (except for singing), praying or speaking in the gathered assembly as long as it is not teaching, or praying and prophesying in the gathered assembly depending on which verses are emphasized. Again, without better clarity in the NT, I think God can bless honest efforts to follow all the teachings in the NT regarding women speaking in the church. If a person picks and chooses the verses that suit his worldview, and let those verses outrank all the other verses, I don't consider this an honest or honorable way of approaching the New Testament.

I mostly agree with this post...however, it isn't clear to me that there is a clear exception for singing if one goes with a hard literal approach of "being silent."

I'm glad we did not adopt Grebel's position on congregational singing, silencing not just the women but the men as well.

I am too...but I can understand his logic. What I am pushing on is the logic that a hard reading of the text, makes it clear that singing is allowed by women in the assembly. I think that "exception" is "softening" of Paul's apparent words.

[Silentreader]

It isn't clear to me that "preacher" is a role formally organized by God. The contemporary, really protestant, emphasis on a long monologue being the center of the service is a relatively new invention and only support biblically by smallest of evidences. Regarding people bringing prophetic words, it seems women also, per Corinthians 13, are empowered to bring something. Bringing a prophetic word in the assembly seems like a totally different subject then the 'elder' question or church governance question.

Acts 20:7-9 ?

It seems clear to me from the surrounding context that this was a marked exception to the usual pattern.

A cautionary tale perhaps?

[ken_sylvania]

Your argument is with 1 Corinthians chapter 11 and Paul, not me, regarding women bringing a prophetic word.

It doesn't say this has to be done in a public assembly. For example, I pray at home, and so does my wife. Sometimes together and sometimes separately.

It seems to me to be clear that the context of the book is the context of public worship. How to do communion in the assembly. How to speak in tongues in the assembly. How to use the gifts in the assembly. How to prophecy and pray in the assembly. How to not offend angels that appear in the assembly. Etc...it stretches credulity for me to assume that this chapter for some reason only applies to a home. Also, keep in mind, there weren't any "church services" in buildings, there were simply meetings in homes, like Lydia's. That is why legalistic types of arrangements where women speak in a "preservice meeting" where the same people are in the same space, don't feel compelling to me.

Um... I think it's a stretch to say that the context of 1 Corinthians is that of public worship. Don't you have to approach the text with a mind pre-disposed to find that? Surely you're not suggesting that Chapter 6 is about what to do or not do in the assembly. Or Chapter 7.

Sure, there are some directions in Chapter 11 for public gatherings, but Paul doesn't stay on that topic for more than just a couple of verses. Chapter 8, of course, is about eating meat offered to idols. Unless one argues that Paul is writing about people bringing such meat to the assembly, the conclusion has to be that Paul is talking about life outside the worship service. In Chapter 9, Paul expands on what he said in Chapter 8 about self-denial, willingly foregoing that which we could legitimately enjoy, in order to benefit others. Chapter 10 continues the discussion, and in fact specifically discusses how to act when attending a feast given by an unbeliever. That is certainly not a public worship service. Chapter 11:2 tackles a new subject, in which it appears Paul is reinforcing a practice that they are already doing well, and he gives background and reasons for the practice. In either 11:16 or 11:17, he again pivots, admonishing them for their divisiveness, and here for the first time he specifically talks about their practices when they assemble together as a church. Immediately afterward, in Chapter 12, he moves to a discussion about spiritual gifts, and once again unless one argues that these gifts are only manifested in the assembly, public worship is not the context.

I would say that the overarching theme of 1 Corinthians 8 through 13 is about building God's kingdom and God's Church by willingly giving up our own personal desires in order to serve others - not about how to go about having public worship.

[ken_sylvania]

I mostly agree with this post...however, it isn't clear to me that there is a clear exception for singing if one goes with a hard literal approach of "being silent."

I'm glad we did not adopt Grebel's position on congregational singing, silencing not just the women but the men as well.

I am too...but I can understand his logic. What I am pushing on is the logic that a hard reading of the text, makes it clear that singing is allowed by women in the assembly. I think that "exception" is "softening" of Paul's apparent words.

Yep. And Peter, James and John went mute for days after seeing Jesus' glory on the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:36).

[joshuabgood]

It doesn't say this has to be done in a public assembly. For example, I pray at home, and so does my wife. Sometimes together and sometimes separately.

It seems to me to be clear that the context of the book is the context of public worship. How to do communion in the assembly. How to speak in tongues in the assembly. How to use the gifts in the assembly. How to prophecy and pray in the assembly. How to not offend angels that appear in the assembly. Etc...it stretches credulity for me to assume that this chapter for some reason only applies to a home. Also, keep in mind, there weren't any "church services" in buildings, there were simply meetings in homes, like Lydia's. That is why legalistic types of arrangements where women speak in a "preservice meeting" where the same people are in the same space, don't feel compelling to me.

Um... I think it's a stretch to say that the context of 1 Corinthians is that of public worship. Don't you have to approach the text with a mind pre-disposed to find that? Surely you're not suggesting that Chapter 6 is about what to do or not do in the assembly. Or Chapter 7.

Sure, there are some directions in Chapter 11 for public gatherings, but Paul doesn't stay on that topic for more than just a couple of verses. Chapter 8, of course, is about eating meat offered to idols. Unless one argues that Paul is writing about people bringing such meat to the assembly, the conclusion has to be that Paul is talking about life outside the worship service. In Chapter 9, Paul expands on what he said in Chapter 8 about self-denial, willingly foregoing that which we could legitimately enjoy, in order to benefit others. Chapter 10 continues the discussion, and in fact specifically discusses how to act when attending a feast given by an unbeliever. That is certainly not a public worship service. Chapter 11:2 tackles a new subject, in which it appears Paul is reinforcing a practice that they are already doing well, and he gives background and reasons for the practice. In either 11:16 or 11:17, he again pivots, admonishing them for their divisiveness, and here for the first time he specifically talks about their practices when they assemble together as a church. Immediately afterward, in Chapter 12, he moves to a discussion about spiritual gifts, and once again unless one argues that these gifts are only manifested in the assembly, public worship is not the context.

I would say that the overarching theme of 1 Corinthians 8 through 13 is about building God's kingdom and God's Church by willingly giving up our own personal desires in order to serve others - not about how to go about having public worship.

That is fair. Saying the "entire" book is about it...is an overstatement. Though it still feels to me that the context is the assembly and public worship.

[Thomas_muntzer]

This is a thread to discuss ordaining women to offices of minister, bishop, elder, deacon, pastor, and so forth.

It might be a sensitive topic, but I believe the Bible is clear in assigning certain roles to men and women.

Although I don't see anything wrong with a woman participating in Bible study or sharing her testimony

[JohnH]

JohnH, are you saying the gentile Christian converts were permitted to enter Jewish synagogues and worship and teach there, not on the Sabbath, but on the first day of the week?

Acts clearly recounts Paul meeting with the congregation at Lydia's house.

I was thinking more of the pattern of the early believers who would have simply continued to go to the synagogues they had always gone to.

Regarding Gentile believers in non-Jewish cities, there probably weren't any synagogues available to be used.

[joshuabgood]

JohnH, are you saying the gentile Christian converts were permitted to enter Jewish synagogues and worship and teach there, not on the Sabbath, but on the first day of the week?

Acts clearly recounts Paul meeting with the congregation at Lydia's house.

I was thinking more of the pattern of the early believers who would have simply continued to go to the synagogues they had always gone to.

Regarding Gentile believers in non-Jewish cities, there probably weren't any synagogues available to be used.

Ok. That makes sense...but I think that is what I am saying. They were just meeting in houses. It isn't like there was a "separate" *service* outside of the home. There appears to be informal gatherings in homes without a lot of the formal trappings we have come to associate with *church*. And it makes sense that women, per Paul's teaching, when veiled, would rightly bring prophetic words to believers for exhortation etc.