Interested in learning about Holdemans

[JohnH]

Is your brother then not in a visible representation of Jesus's church on earth?

If you're speaking of the church my brother goes to, I considered it apostate when I left it, long before I had anything to do with the Holdemans and when I didn't even hold a "united, undivided church of God" doctrinal view.

I don't really like to spend too much time trashing specific churches so I'll just leave it at a short summary that proper church discipline was not being performed and I was unwilling to attend or be a member in a church where they had an unrepentant adulterer and abuser in the membership.

It is my sincere hope that they will move past those problems and eventually be reunited with the true church, and if that doesn't happen, that each member there will also find their way, even if it does not happen until we are in the New Jerusalem.

[Soloist]

Is your brother then not in a visible representation of Jesus's church on earth?

If you're speaking of the church my brother goes to, I considered it apostate when I left it, long before I had anything to do with the Holdemans and when I didn't even hold a "united, undivided church of God" doctrinal view.

I don't really like to spend too much time trashing specific churches so I'll just leave it at a short summary that proper church discipline was not being performed and I was unwilling to attend or be a member in a church where they had an unrepentant adulterer and abuser in the membership.

It is my sincere hope that they will move past those problems and eventually be reunited with the true church, and if that doesn't happen, that each member there will also find their way, even if it does not happen until we are in the New Jerusalem.

Okay... got to admit I forgot what church he was attending

[ken_sylvania]

Nice lot of words, but you didn't answer my question. Can you honestly say that the COGIC Mennonite is the only visible representation of Jesus' church on earth?

I have not explored the entire earth, so I can’t say for sure.

In my local region where I live, I feel confident they are, specifically my congregation.

Thank you for answering.

[MattY]

As for the church I attend, I believe it is a local body of the true church, but I dont think it is the one true church.

Obviously, the one true church has multiple congregations. So the question is... is your congregation part of the one true church, or not?

If you believe it is, I'm glad for you. However, that negates criticisms about other people believing the same.

If you believe it isn't, I would ask what you are doing at a congregation that is not part of the true church.

This doesn't seem to follow. I and joshuabgood can believe our churches are part of the true church - and so is yours - without negating criticism of a doctrine of a one true church held by any specific group of churches. The Biblical unity of the true church of Jesus Christ does not consist of belonging to the same parachurch organization (denomination), nor of being visibly the same, or having a visibly impressive outward unity. The true church is discerned spiritually by faith, not by carnal means. If our method of discerning the true church leads us to feeling superior or to display contempt for others, it is carnal. If it leads to love for Christ and others, it is spiritual.

When Paul began his letter to the Corinthians, he said, "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours." (The Corinthian church was extremely flawed by the way, and yet a true church). There was no organizational unity or denominational structure connecting all of these believers everywhere as of yet. But they were all united by their faith in same Lord. That's Biblical unity. There are secret house churches in China, who are not Anabaptist, people who we will never know of or meet until heaven, with whom we are united in one Body of Christ, his Church. There is a difference between believing my church is a true church, or a local body of the true church, without holding to a OTC doctrine that excludes faithful believers of other denominations who happen to disagree with us on various things - not because they are not true believers in true churches but because we are all still in the flesh in this fallen world.

[barnhart]

Well said MattY.

[JohnH]

This doesn't seem to follow. I and joshuabgood can believe our churches are part of the true church - and so is yours - without negating criticism of a doctrine of a one true church held by any specific group of churches. The Biblical unity of the true church of Jesus Christ does not consist of belonging to the same parachurch organization (denomination), nor of being visibly the same, or having a visibly impressive outward unity.

I don't think the same Holy Spirit tells two different congregations to follow two different sets of doctrine, and the Bible doesn't teach us that either. I also think that "one baptism" actually means that; I don't think one can claim to have "Biblical unity" when one can't share pulpits, communion, excommunications, and so forth.

And that's probably what it really boils down to - a united church would share excommunications with one another, because either someone has fallen into sin and is outside of the grace of God, and outside of "the church", or they are not. And if two congregations don't honour each other's excommunications, then by definition one of them is not part of "the church".

When Paul began his letter to the Corinthians, he said, "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours." (The Corinthian church was extremely flawed by the way, and yet a true church).

And there weren't 25 different denominations in Corinth, all with different doctrine.

There was no organizational unity or denominational structure connecting all of these believers everywhere as of yet. But they were all united by their faith in same Lord. That's Biblical unity.

There most certainly was - Paul kept sending them letters telling them to align with the rest of the congregations in other places, and we also know from history how quickly episcopal structures emerged and mandated uniformity in both doctrines and practices.

without holding to a OTC doctrine that excludes faithful believers of other denominations who happen to disagree with us on various things - not because they are not true believers in true churches but because we are all still in the flesh in this fallen world.

I don't make any claims on churches and congregations I am not familiar with. I am a lot more focused on ones I am familiar with and can critique.

Incidentally, OTVC belief systems are very common in the Chinese "underground churches", with one example being a much harsher flavour to them than the Holdemans have. Ironically, lots of Anabaptists like to read the books written by the people that started that OTC sect.

To get back to basics, I consider part of being "one church" sharing the same excommunications, which is something I simply do not see other Anabaptists doing, and in my opinion they do so to their detriment. But being able to share them means entering into much closer fellowship.

[R7ehr]

Our Western Fellowship manages to honour (treat as legitimate) other Anabaptist groups excomunications just fine without pairing it to a OTC doctrine. So that isn’t really something that needs one for the other.

In fact, I think that we would accept/take serious any churches excommunication at face value, for whatever that is worth. And if any person wanted to join our church, we would dig into the reason for the excommunication and move forward from there.

[JohnH]

Our Western Fellowship manages to honour (treat as legitimate) other Anabaptist groups excomunications just fine without pairing it to a OTC doctrine. So that isn’t really something that needs one for the other.

In fact, I think that we would except any churches excommunication at face value, for whatever that is worth. And if that person wanted to join our church, we would dig into the reason for the excommunication and move forward from there.

That would mean, however, that you affirm those other churches as true churches though. Generally speaking, very, very few conservative Mennonite churches honour excommunications from Old Order groups, particularly when paired with a narrative that "the excommunicate anyone who leaves" or "they excommunicate anyone who gets born again".

To fully have a united church, congregations need to fully honour each other's membership, baptisms, excommunications, being placed on repentance (steps before excommunication), practicing avoidance in a scriptural manner of excommunicants, ordained ministry from each other's churches, and so forth. If those things aren't being done, then there really isn't any unity, and one or both churches considers itself more "true" than the other.

[R7ehr]

Our Western Fellowship manages to honour (treat as legitimate) other Anabaptist groups excomunications just fine without pairing it to a OTC doctrine. So that isn’t really something that needs one for the other.

In fact, I think that we would except any churches excommunication at face value, for whatever that is worth. And if that person wanted to join our church, we would dig into the reason for the excommunication and move forward from there.

That would mean, however, that you affirm those other churches as true churches though. Generally speaking, very, very few conservative Mennonite churches honour excommunications from Old Order groups, particularly when paired with a narrative that "the excommunicate anyone who leaves" or "they excommunicate anyone who gets born again".

To fully have a united church, congregations need to fully honour each other's membership, baptisms, excommunications, being placed on repentance (steps before excommunication), practicing avoidance in a scriptural manner of excommunicants, ordained ministry from each other's churches, and so forth. If those things aren't being done, then there really isn't any unity, and one or both churches considers itself more "true" than the other.

Since there are virtually no people from Old Order or Holdeman groups in our churches, much less any who were excommunicated from OO or Holdeman churches that excommunicate people who leave, I can’t say that we have experienced this.
But I do have every confidence that should it happen, we would not simply take them in as members on their word without communicating with their old church.

One time we did have a young person from a much more conservative church relocate with his parents. He was excommunicated and on proving at their old church when he arrived here. The two churches communicated about it, and his old church officially handed the proving responsibilities over to our church. It worked out fine. This is the closest and most recent example of churches working together with mutual respect across wide denominational divides.

[JohnH]

Since there are virtually no people from Old Order or Holdeman groups in our churches, much less any who were excommunicated from OO or Holdeman churches that excommunicate people who leave, I can’t say that we have experienced this.

That's a very good testimony. I'm glad you are not following the negative trends I see in much of the rest of the "transitional Anabaptist" world.

But I do have every confidence that should it happen, we would not simply take them in as members on their word without communicating with their old church.

One time we did have a young person from a much more conservative church relocate with his parents. He was excommunicated and on proving at their old church when he arrived here. The two churches communicated about it, and his old church officially handed the proving responsibilities over to our church. It worked out fine. This is the closest and most recent example of churches working together with mutual respect across wide denominational divides.

It would be great to see a lot more of this.