Interested in learning about Holdemans

[JohnH]

Is that a yes?

I think the New Testament, as a whole, lays out what the church is and how it should be, and that the closer we follow the New Testament the more we can fulfil the church's mission, which includes safety for its members including proper discipline, encouragement, and admonishment.

I think that when we stray from the New Testament, the church doesn't work as well. One obvious example would be when the church merged with the state. But another example is in the Protestant era when "church" became some kind of vague ephemeral invisible thing, or just got redefined to mean "all people who are Christians anywhere". It's hard for a vague thing you can't see and certainly have no hope of ever attending to live up to the New Testament ideals laid out for it.

Ultimately I'm not sure what the purpose is of these interrogations, though, like it's some kind of "gotcha". Obviously I believe in a united, undivided church of God, and a one, true, visible church. It is not some big secret that I believe these things. I think all other Christians should embrace these things as they are found in the New Testament; if that isn't convincing, then I recommend reading early Anabaptist writers, who expounded upon the same things.

If you don't think your own congregation is the true church, I feel you should do one of two things:

- push for changes to make it part of the united, undivided church of God, in unity and harmony with all other true congregations of the true church.
- give up and leave it, and search for the true church elsewhere.

[joshuabgood]

There is no interrogation. I am genuinely curious why the Holdemans hang on to the one true church idea.

As for the church I attend, I believe it is a local body of the true church, but I dont think it is the one true church.

[JohnH]

There is no interrogation. I am genuinely curious why the Holdemans hang on to the one true church idea.

You say "hang on" as if there should be some kind of "progress" into believing some kind of generic doctrine. What makes your doctrines somehow better than the Holdemans? Is your church actually the one true church with the doctrines everyone else should believe?

Holdemans, in particular, do not see things in other Anabaptist groups they are excited about becoming. Most people who lose faith in the one true church doctrine tend to also lose faith in other Anabaptist distinctives. But very few Holdemans wake up in the morning and go, "You know, what I'd really like is to be more like the neighbouring Anabaptist church down the road where they keep having splits."

As for the church I attend, I believe it is a local body of the true church, but I dont think it is the one true church.

Obviously, the one true church has multiple congregations. So the question is... is your congregation part of the one true church, or not?

If you believe it is, I'm glad for you. However, that negates criticisms about other people believing the same.

If you believe it isn't, I would ask what you are doing at a congregation that is not part of the true church.

[Ernie]

If you don't think your own congregation is the true church, I feel you should do one of two things:

- push for changes to make it part of the united, undivided church of God, in unity and harmony with all other true congregations of the true church.
- give up and leave it, and search for the true church elsewhere.

Do you think there are any congregations (other than those who are COGICM) who are part of the united, undivided church of God?

If a person searches for the true church, will that need to be among COGICM congregations or are there other alternatives?

[JohnH]

Do you think there are any congregations (other than those who are COGICM) who are part of the united, undivided church of God?

Of course. Any congregation of true hearted believers who are willing to follow the New Testament, accept sound doctrine and practice, and seek fellowship with other congregations and believers doing the same.

If a person searches for the true church, will that need to be among COGICM congregations or are there other alternatives?

I am not Jesus and am not in charge of unifying the church, nor being able to make that judgment call for the whole world. I just do the best I can for myself. That is all any believer can do.

I do go so far as to tell folks they should avoid churches which preach ideas like the “wheat and the tares” existing inside the same church, and avoid churches that have doctrines and practice yet claim you should somehow be in close fellowship with people who lack sound doctrine and practice.

Most of my friends who sought conservative Anabaptism didn’t listen to me and chose a transitional, not-very-conservative church that explicitly proclaimed itself not the true church and that lots of other non-plain churches are just fine. They also didn’t listen to me to choose a church with a high proportion of established members from non-Anabaptist or non-Christian backgrounds.

Now they are disappointed and seeking stricter churches. Many want to seek a horse and buggy / non-electric group. They all want a church which isn’t a revolving door of young people leaving for less conservative settings. They also all want a church with stricter standards on dress and media / technology usage. And they would like to see more openness to productive evangelism.

[mike]

Do you think there are any congregations (other than those who are COGICM) who are part of the united, undivided church of God?

Of course. Any congregation of true hearted believers who are willing to follow the New Testament, accept sound doctrine and practice, and seek fellowship with other congregations and believers doing the same.

And yet, I understand that the Holdemans will excommunicate someone who leaves one of their churches to join a congregation such as you describe. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Ernie]

Do you think there are any congregations (other than those who are COGICM) who are part of the united, undivided church of God?

Of course. Any congregation of true hearted believers who are willing to follow the New Testament, accept sound doctrine and practice, and seek fellowship with other congregations and believers doing the same.

So you think that joshuabgood's congregation does not meet that criteria if I am understanding correctly.

Are there Anabaptist churches who are not COGICM that you believe meet this criteria?

[ken_sylvania]

Can you honestly say that the COGIC Mennonite is the only visible representation of Jesus' church on earth?

I think it's clear from scripture that there is only one united, undivided church, and I think that church should be visible. I don't think "the church" is some subset of people sitting in the pews at all kinds of random "churches", because that group of people don't or can't do the things that the New Testament clearly says the church does do.

I think every believer should labour to either find a true church that follows what is in the New Testament, or else labour to ensure their own congregation is a true church. I think if one's church is busy telling everyone "We aren't the true church, and in fact attending any other church is just fine," that there is a serious problem. And I think a lot of congregations and denominations out there are obviously false - they are not following what the New Testament describes they should do.

Beyond that, my responsibility and duty is to ensure my own congregation is a true church, and then I have an even more limited responsibility to ensure other congregations we are in fellowship with are true churches. The best way to do that is to be a responsible church member, and to uplift and encourage other members, and occasionally admonish them.

I think every one else here who wants to follow Jesus should do the same. With that said, I do believe in a one, true visible church doctrine, although I prefer the term "united, undivided church of God", and I hope the rest of you, if you don't believe in it now, at least long for and hope for it in the future.

Nice lot of words, but you didn't answer my question. Can you honestly say that the COGIC Mennonite is the only visible representation of Jesus' church on earth?

[JohnH]

Nice lot of words, but you didn't answer my question. Can you honestly say that the COGIC Mennonite is the only visible representation of Jesus' church on earth?

I have not explored the entire earth, so I can’t say for sure.

In my local region where I live, I feel confident they are, specifically my congregation.

[Soloist]

Nice lot of words, but you didn't answer my question. Can you honestly say that the COGIC Mennonite is the only visible representation of Jesus' church on earth?

I have not explored the entire earth, so I can’t say for sure.

In my local region where I live, I feel confident they are, specifically my congregation.

Is your brother then not in a visible representation of Jesus's church on earth?