Disciplined Church Life

[Ken]

So large numbers of folks in Latin America who are becoming Pentecostal or Baptist or whatever, aren't really "converting" in any meaningful way. They are becoming religious when previously they weren't except in name only.

That is helpful info.

My wife's family would be a good example. My mother-in-law is in her 80s and a devout Catholic. We take her to mass at the local Catholic church when she visits and we attend with her when we go to Chile. She is on first-name basis with all the local Catholic hierarchy and so forth.

By contrast, my father-in-law probably hasn't darkened the doorway of a Catholic church in 3 decades except for overtly family events like weddings or funerals. If you ask him about the Catholic church he'll probably go off on how Opus Dei is ruining the country or priest sex abuse scandals or some such. He would most definitely be classified as a "none" or "non-religious" in the US. But he is still nominally Catholic in Chile and no doubt still on the church registry somewhere. And in the census probably checks "Catholic" just out of default because he definitely isn't protestant or Mormon. My wife's brother is exactly the same. He is completely non-religious but is still likely registered as Catholic somewhere even though is participation in Catholic life probably ended when he graduated from Catholic HS decades ago.

So there are millions upon millions of people in Latin America who's actual religious participation is about the equivalent to attending your child's annual Christmas pageant at the local school once a year. And putting up a Christmas tree. But who get counted as Catholic by default.

[Sudsy]

I wonder what the unsaved world would say, in a poll, what they believe Anabaptists emphasize ?

RULES would be my guess.

This reminded me of an expression I have heard various times, usually from conservative Anabaptists, that the culture represents a "disciplined church life." I'd enjoy some discussions about this idea.

In what way is conservative Anabaptist church life, as opposed to the church life of other Christians groups, disciplined? What are the pros and cons?

In what way is the church life of non-CA Christian churches less disciplined or even undisciplined, and what are the pros and cons?

I can only speak from my experiences in non-CA church life.

All 6 different faith groups in my experience I would describe as very limited discipline if discipline means enforces rules that must be followed. I'll just provide 3 pros and cons imo.

Pros - more conducive to personal, spiritual growth over time ; less judgmental attitude of others; more concern and mixing with the lost to see them born again.

Cons - quantity takes precedent over quality of members ; sometimes lack correcting those who are busybodies or some other disruption for fear of losing them ; lack of any reminding of church covenant.

I have trouble in the 'Cons' section as I view rules to be a hindrance to personal growth / spiritual convictions. Rules, to me, is more like a following a religion than following Jesus as the Holy Spirit guides each one toward maturity.

[Neto]

So large numbers of folks in Latin America who are becoming Pentecostal or Baptist or whatever, aren't really "converting" in any meaningful way. They are becoming religious when previously they weren't except in name only.

That is helpful info.

My wife's family would be a good example. My mother-in-law is in her 80s and a devout Catholic. We take her to mass at the local Catholic church when she visits and we attend with her when we go to Chile. She is on first-name basis with all the local Catholic hierarchy and so forth.

By contrast, my father-in-law probably hasn't darkened the doorway of a Catholic church in 3 decades except for overtly family events like weddings or funerals. If you ask him about the Catholic church he'll probably go off on how Opus Dei is ruining the country or priest sex abuse scandals or some such. He would most definitely be classified as a "none" or "non-religious" in the US. But he is still nominally Catholic in Chile and no doubt still on the church registry somewhere. And in the census probably checks "Catholic" just out of default because he definitely isn't protestant or Mormon. My wife's brother is exactly the same. He is completely non-religious but is still likely registered as Catholic somewhere even though is participation in Catholic life probably ended when he graduated from Catholic HS decades ago.

So there are millions upon millions of people in Latin America who's actual religious participation is about the equivalent to attending your child's annual Christmas pageant at the local school once a year. And putting up a Christmas tree. But who get counted as Catholic by default.

Your examples are consistent with what I saw in Brazil, and also in the case of friends here in the US, one family who were Dutch Catholic, and my sister-in-law's family, who are Polish Catholic. That is, the women are generally much more religious than the men. But from what I've heard and seen in the Protestant churches, I think it is pretty much the same. I think that women are very often the backbone of traditional religion in Animist societies as well. It was noticeably so among the Banawa. (This may be largely due to the different levels of exposure to "the outside". In the case of the Banawa, for example, when my wife began bringing in fabric and letting the women purchase it themselves, this was the first time they had ever had the opportunity to choose fabric for themselves. The men had always done this when they were out to the mouth of the river, where there was a small Brazilian "back-water" settlement.)

[Ken]

That is helpful info.

My wife's family would be a good example. My mother-in-law is in her 80s and a devout Catholic. We take her to mass at the local Catholic church when she visits and we attend with her when we go to Chile. She is on first-name basis with all the local Catholic hierarchy and so forth.

By contrast, my father-in-law probably hasn't darkened the doorway of a Catholic church in 3 decades except for overtly family events like weddings or funerals. If you ask him about the Catholic church he'll probably go off on how Opus Dei is ruining the country or priest sex abuse scandals or some such. He would most definitely be classified as a "none" or "non-religious" in the US. But he is still nominally Catholic in Chile and no doubt still on the church registry somewhere. And in the census probably checks "Catholic" just out of default because he definitely isn't protestant or Mormon. My wife's brother is exactly the same. He is completely non-religious but is still likely registered as Catholic somewhere even though is participation in Catholic life probably ended when he graduated from Catholic HS decades ago.

So there are millions upon millions of people in Latin America who's actual religious participation is about the equivalent to attending your child's annual Christmas pageant at the local school once a year. And putting up a Christmas tree. But who get counted as Catholic by default.

Your examples are consistent with what I saw in Brazil, and also in the case of friends here in the US, one family who were Dutch Catholic, and my sister-in-law's family, who are Polish Catholic. That is, the women are generally much more religious than the men. But from what I've heard and seen in the Protestant churches, I think it is pretty much the same. I think that women are very often the backbone of traditional religion in Animist societies as well. It was noticeably so among the Banawa. (This may be largely due to the different levels of exposure to "the outside". In the case of the Banawa, for example, when my wife began bringing in fabric and letting the women purchase it themselves, this was the first time they had ever had the opportunity to choose fabric for themselves. The men had always done this when they were out to the mouth of the river, where there was a small Brazilian "back-water" settlement.)

My theory is that this is also due to the ironclad separation between clergy and laity in the Catholic church. All the male leadership roles are essentially reserved for the priesthood. Sure there are different lay orders like Opus Dei where men have leadership roles. Or Knights of Columbus here in the US. But they are pretty peripheral to the day-to-day religious functions of the church. If you are a male Catholic lay person not all that much is asked of you or expected frankly. You don't even have Sunday school to teach. Religious instruction is pretty much the exclusive terrain of priests and nuns in the case of religious schools. The Catholic Church isn't particularly interested in lay people deciding for themselves what different scriptures mean.

[Ernie]

In this thread I think we are identifying a number of definitions for "Disciplined Church Life".

1. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for the sorts of sins found in Galatians 5.
2. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for various other things including not keeping one's commitment to follow the church order
3. Churches that have lots of structure and set ways of doing things as compared with a lot of whip-lash and arbitrary decisions from the leadership
4. Churches that emphasizes moderation and temperance in all things as compared with an emphasis on spontaneity and free for all expression

Galations 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[ken_sylvania]

Honestly, I think some of it is also cultural and not simply a specific interpretation of Scripture.

For example, compare the national character of Germany or Switzerland to Italy or Spain. Mennonites have probably done a lot better job of maintaining their Swiss/German heritage than just about any other immigrant group. We had a German exchange student for a year and she told us about public pool in her town where there was a line painted down the middle of the locker room floor and hallway to the pool. Wet feet on one side of the line, dry feet on the other. And that everyone always just obeys without question. The notion that Americans would follow such rules is laughable.

I'm not comparing pools to church discipline. Just pointing out that most ethnic Mennonites come from a ethnic culture where quiet obedient discipline is the norm.

By contrast, I think a lot of Pentecostals come from an Appalachian culture that has deep Scots-Irish roots. And, of course, Black. Poor southern and Appalachian Scots-Irish were the dominant waves of poor migrants that moved west to Los Angeles after the Civil War and turn of the century, where Pentecostalism got its start. That is a much more loud and chaotic culture. And the same Appalachian culture is where it later spread most readily. That probably reflects to some extent the different nature of Pentecostal churches...noisy, chaotic, etc.

Does the difference in national character between Switzerland/Germany vs. Italy/Spain/Ireland have anything to do with their religious history?

[Ken]

Honestly, I think some of it is also cultural and not simply a specific interpretation of Scripture.

For example, compare the national character of Germany or Switzerland to Italy or Spain. Mennonites have probably done a lot better job of maintaining their Swiss/German heritage than just about any other immigrant group. We had a German exchange student for a year and she told us about public pool in her town where there was a line painted down the middle of the locker room floor and hallway to the pool. Wet feet on one side of the line, dry feet on the other. And that everyone always just obeys without question. The notion that Americans would follow such rules is laughable.

I'm not comparing pools to church discipline. Just pointing out that most ethnic Mennonites come from a ethnic culture where quiet obedient discipline is the norm.

By contrast, I think a lot of Pentecostals come from an Appalachian culture that has deep Scots-Irish roots. And, of course, Black. Poor southern and Appalachian Scots-Irish were the dominant waves of poor migrants that moved west to Los Angeles after the Civil War and turn of the century, where Pentecostalism got its start. That is a much more loud and chaotic culture. And the same Appalachian culture is where it later spread most readily. That probably reflects to some extent the different nature of Pentecostal churches...noisy, chaotic, etc.

Does the difference in national character between Switzerland/Germany vs. Italy/Spain/Ireland have anything to do with their religious history?

You are asking a chicken and egg question. To some extent national character and religious history are two sides of the same coin.

For example, one might ask why the Reformation and Anabaptism emerged in in the Germanic countries of northern Europe and not in Spain, Italy, or Portugal. There are probably a host of interconnected economic, social, and religious reasons for why it happened that way.

[Sudsy]

In this thread I think we are identifying a number of definitions for "Disciplined Church Life".

1. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for the sorts of sins found in Galatians 5.
2. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for various other things including not keeping one's commitment to follow the church order
3. Churches that have lots of structure and set ways of doing things as compared with a lot of whip-lash and arbitrary decisions from the leadership
4. Churches that emphasizes moderation and temperance in all things as compared with an emphasis on spontaneity and free for all expression

Galations 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul in this text is giving us the key to a disciplined life that is not lived according to our flesh but rather a life walking according to the Spirit. Here is the extended text from the Amplified -

For you, my brothers, were called to freedom; only do not let your freedom become an opportunity for the sinful nature (worldliness, selfishness), but through love serve and seek the best for one another. 14 For the whole Law [concerning human relationships] is fulfilled in one precept, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself [that is, you shall have an unselfish concern for others and do things for their benefit].” 15 But if you bite and devour one another [in bickering and strife], watch out that you [along with your entire fellowship] are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk habitually in the [Holy] Spirit [seek Him and be responsive to His guidance], and then you will certainly not carry out the desire of the sinful nature [which responds impulsively without regard for God and His precepts]. 17 For the sinful nature has its desire which is opposed to the Spirit, and the [desire of the] Spirit opposes the sinful nature; for these [two, the sinful nature and the Spirit] are in direct opposition to each other [continually in conflict], so that you [as believers] do not [always] do whatever [good things] you want to do. 18 But if you are guided and led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the Law. 19 Now the practices of the sinful nature are clearly evident: they are sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality (total irresponsibility, lack of self-control), 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions [that promote heresies], 21 envy, drunkenness, riotous behavior, and other things like these. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit [the result of His presence within us] is love [unselfish concern for others], joy, [inner] peace, patience [not the ability to wait, but how we act while waiting], kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature together with its passions and appetites.

25 If we [claim to] live by the [Holy] Spirit, we must also walk by the Spirit [with personal integrity, godly character, and moral courage—our conduct empowered by the Holy Spirit]. 26 We must not become conceited, challenging or provoking one another, envying one another.

So, to me, Paul is saying that we all need to focus on living our own lives by walking in the Spirit and not according to the flesh. If we all focused on living every moment of the day being guided and controlled by the Holy Spirit, I believe it would have resulted in far fewer church splits and be a far more impacting representation of Christianity on the unsaved. A church where the majority are walking by the Spirit will be a very uncomfortable place to stay in for those who walk according to the flesh.

[Soloist]

So, to me, Paul is saying that we all need to focus on living our own lives by walking in the Spirit and not according to the flesh. If we all focused on living every moment of the day being guided and controlled by the Holy Spirit, I believe it would have resulted in far fewer church splits and be a far more impacting representation of Christianity on the unsaved. A church where the majority are walking by the Spirit will be a very uncomfortable place to stay in for those who walk according to the flesh.

Correct me if I’m wrong, I seem to recall you saying you didn’t attend church? Is this incorrect? Do you have a local church you actually attend?

[Neto]

In this thread I think we are identifying a number of definitions for "Disciplined Church Life".

1. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for the sorts of sins found in Galatians 5.
2. Churches that discipline/excommunicate for various other things including not keeping one's commitment to follow the church order
3. Churches that have lots of structure and set ways of doing things as compared with a lot of whip-lash and arbitrary decisions from the leadership
4. Churches that emphasizes moderation and temperance in all things as compared with an emphasis on spontaneity and free for all expression

Galations 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[a] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul in this text is giving us the key to a disciplined life that is not lived according to our flesh but rather a life walking according to the Spirit. Here is the extended text from the Amplified -

For you, my brothers, were called to freedom; only do not let your freedom become an opportunity for the sinful nature (worldliness, selfishness), but through love serve and seek the best for one another. 14 For the whole Law [concerning human relationships] is fulfilled in one precept, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself [that is, you shall have an unselfish concern for others and do things for their benefit].” 15 But if you bite and devour one another [in bickering and strife], watch out that you [along with your entire fellowship] are not consumed by one another.

16 But I say, walk habitually in the [Holy] Spirit [seek Him and be responsive to His guidance], and then you will certainly not carry out the desire of the sinful nature [which responds impulsively without regard for God and His precepts]. 17 For the sinful nature has its desire which is opposed to the Spirit, and the [desire of the] Spirit opposes the sinful nature; for these [two, the sinful nature and the Spirit] are in direct opposition to each other [continually in conflict], so that you [as believers] do not [always] do whatever [good things] you want to do. 18 But if you are guided and led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the Law. 19 Now the practices of the sinful nature are clearly evident: they are sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality (total irresponsibility, lack of self-control), 20 idolatry, sorcery, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions [that promote heresies], 21 envy, drunkenness, riotous behavior, and other things like these. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit [the result of His presence within us] is love [unselfish concern for others], joy, [inner] peace, patience [not the ability to wait, but how we act while waiting], kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature together with its passions and appetites.

25 If we [claim to] live by the [Holy] Spirit, we must also walk by the Spirit [with personal integrity, godly character, and moral courage—our conduct empowered by the Holy Spirit]. 26 We must not become conceited, challenging or provoking one another, envying one another.

So, to me, Paul is saying that we all need to focus on living our own lives by walking in the Spirit and not according to the flesh. If we all focused on living every moment of the day being guided and controlled by the Holy Spirit, I believe it would have resulted in far fewer church splits and be a far more impacting representation of Christianity on the unsaved. A church where the majority are walking by the Spirit will be a very uncomfortable place to stay in for those who walk according to the flesh.

Yes, and the opposite is also true. A person who is walking in the life of the Spirit will not be comfortable in a place where the others are walking in the fleshly ways of the world.