Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Josh]

Dan,

You seem to be making an assumption that Russians would fundamentally agree with the Western perspective on things.

No, I think it is a matter of basic humanity. I assume many Russian folks, just like anyone with an empathetic heart, would respond viscerally when confronted with reports of wanton death and destruction of civilians and neighborhoods...especially if it comes at the hands of their own government.

Why didn’t Americans respond to that in the face of much worse in Iraq or Yemen?

[Josh]

Dan,

You seem to be making an assumption that Russians would fundamentally agree with the Western perspective on things.

Russia is a dictatorship. Public opinion doesn't really matter in Russia today any more than it mattered under Stalin.

This is flatly false. Russia holds elections. The fact your favoured candidates don’t win doesn’t mean it’s a dictatorship.

Like it or not, a majority of the voters like United Russia. They certainly have little interest in whatever candidate America wants them to vote for.

[Ken]

Dan,

You seem to be making an assumption that Russians would fundamentally agree with the Western perspective on things.

Russia is a dictatorship. Public opinion doesn't really matter in Russia today any more than it mattered under Stalin.

This is flatly false. Russia holds elections. The fact your favoured candidates don’t win doesn’t mean it’s a dictatorship.

Like it or not, a majority of the voters like United Russia. They certainly have little interest in whatever candidate America wants them to vote for.

North Korea, China, and Iran have elections too. That doesn't make them any less authoritarian. Not one single independent source recognizes Russian elections as remotely free and fair.

Don't you get tired of uncritically repeating Russian propaganda?

[Karstan78]

From what I am hearing from reporting inside of Russia, and from Ukrainians with family in Russia, they know there is a "special military action" that is taking pains to avoid civilian impact...but no, they are not hearing the whole story. And the Russian free press has been essentially shut down.

Is this news to you?

I know Russians living in Russia, everyone I've talked to is quite aware of what's going on. I'm not sure how we're getting such different stories.

Are the people you're talking to surprised to hear your version of events?

A couple of weeks ago my Dad in Kaliningrad sent me a copy of his will because he doesn’t think he’s going to survive a NATO invasion. I’m just not sure how I’m going to get my inheritance in the middle of WWIII.

He’s also expressed fear about an American false flag chemical attack that NATO will use to blame Russia and attack. Oh and he’s worried about the upcoming NATO no-fly zone. He believes the civilian deaths in Mariupol are because Ukraine is using human shields and has recommended pro-Russia Western commentators to me that believe the war in Ukraine is being faked.

He has access to Western media, I’m not sure he’s just getting it from Russian media, but I think he’s also getting it from lefty critics.

This^ Russians we know here in Germany believe Putin wholeheartedly. These are normally lovely people, warm, friendly and very open. But they really dislike Ukraine and believe that the Ukrainians are committing atrocities on their own people and just about every other narrative Putin has spun. There is a real fear that the Ukrainians will also start using chemical warfare.

[temporal1]

This^ Russians we know here in Germany believe Putin wholeheartedly. These are normally lovely people, warm, friendly and very open. But they really dislike Ukraine and believe that the Ukrainians are committing atrocities on their own people and just about every other narrative Putin has spun. There is a real fear that the Ukrainians will also start using chemical warfare.

When i visited Montreal, 1970-ish, i was mortified to find Quebecians Québécois hating+fighting each other over language.
When my 20-something son visited friends in Brazil, he returned in shock that Brazilians hate Mexicans. we don’t know why. not sure a reason is necessary.

With humans, nothing surprises too much. “It’s always something.”

[JimFoxvog]

I think nations going to war is preferable to nations turning to Sodom, I see the west as Sodom right now. Sodom is always condemned in scripture, nations going to war is not.

The sin of Sodom, according to the Bible:

Now this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, plenty of food, and comfortable security, but didn’t support the poor and needy.

You are correct that this describes much of the west.

Jesus spoke about pride and giving to the poor, but he also taught about loving one's enemies. According to Jesus, going to war is wrong, as well as the sins of Sodom that God warned Ezekiel about.

[JimFoxvog]

Why do you think that? Very few Americans reacted to atrocities when they thought the US was "fighting terror"

I was under the impression that quite a few of us Americans were reacting to American atrocities. I'm not in the streets protesting Russia's actions like I was those of the US. All invasions are wrong, but now is the time to focus on the invasion taking place now.

[Szdfan]

Why do you think that? Very few Americans reacted to atrocities when they thought the US was "fighting terror"

I was under the impression that quite a few of us Americans were reacting to American atrocities. I'm not in the streets protesting Russia's actions like I was those of the US. All invasions are wrong, but now is the time to focus on the invasion taking place now.

I also protested the invasion of Iraq. I was at one of the big protests in Washington DC.

[Szdfan]

Interesting article in the Atlantic about how Ukrainian literature (including in the 19th century) resisted erasure by Russia and attempted to strengthen Ukrainian culture and identity.

https://www.theatlantic.com/books/archi ... ggKlTSJ1VQ

Ukrainians frequently speak of the need to become Ukrainians: to consolidate their culture, language, and institutions after centuries of imperial domination. What Ukrainians see as a work in progress, however, Russia interprets as weakness; it views Ukraine as an accident of history. Indeed, before he ordered in the tanks, Vladimir Putin spent nearly an hour on television trying to convince Russians that Ukraine was nothing but an “anti-Russia” engineered by the West on “our historical land.”

Ukrainian national identity is not an accident, nor was it invented by the West. But for centuries, Ukrainians have struggled to fend off attempts to erase their culture. In the early 19th century, Russian publishers accepted Ukrainian literature only if it was ethnographic, comedic, or apolitical. (Serious literature had to be in Russian.) Successive laws in 1863 and 1876 led to the effective banning of all works in the Ukrainian language, as well as their near-complete prohibition in public settings. In the 1930s, Stalin executed a whole generation of writers who had been rebuilding Ukrainian literary culture in the decade prior, brutally cutting short the growth of the country’s vibrant avant-garde.

The story of Ukrainian literature is one of defiance in the face of imperial arrogance. Often, Ukrainian writers worked cautiously within the restrictions the Russian empire imposed in order to create some semblance of a literary culture. Sometimes they tried to express their Ukrainianness through works written in Russian. Others chose outright criticism of Russian imperialism—and suffered for it. Others still simply laughed at the hubris of those intent on making Ukraine look insignificant.

[Neto]

This^ Russians we know here in Germany believe Putin wholeheartedly. These are normally lovely people, warm, friendly and very open. But they really dislike Ukraine and believe that the Ukrainians are committing atrocities on their own people and just about every other narrative Putin has spun. There is a real fear that the Ukrainians will also start using chemical warfare.

When i visited Montreal, 1970-ish, i was mortified to find Quebecians Québécois hating+fighting each other over language.
When my 20-something son visited friends in Brazil, he returned in shock that Brazilians hate Mexicans. we don’t know why. not sure a reason is necessary.

With humans, nothing surprises too much. “It’s always something.”

We lived in Brazil for 18 years, and have visited there several times since, and I do not recall ever having heard that. However, we never lived in southern Brazil, where most tourists go. We lived in three different large cities, Forteleza, CE for 10 months, Brasilia (federal capitol) for 5 months, and the remainder of that time in Porto Velho, RO (except for the time we were in the village, in the state of Amazonas).
There were individuals who said that they "like Americans, but hate out government" (during the 2nd Iraq war), and many sided with Cuba against the US, feeling that the embargo against them should have been lifted long ago. (I am not political, but tend to agree. Why does the USA do business with China & Vietnam, and not Cuba?)