Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Dan Z]

I wonder how complete the Russian control of information coming out of Ukraine is? With so many personal/family connections, and so many people seeing the destruction first hand, plus the existence of devices like VPNs to help bypass state control of information, it has only got to be a matter of time until a good portion of the Russian populace is confronted with the disconnect between the official account and what is happening and the reality on the ground.

Not that access to more information will necessarily change minds among those most loyal to the state perspective...if the past (and MennoNet) has taught us anything, it is that people will believe what they believe - and build a fact base to support those beliefs. But for some, I think what is happening will be a cold awakening for many in Russia.

I am again reminded of the horror and destruction of the Iraq war...and how little angst it really caused most Americans - even with a free press.

[Josh]

Dan,

You seem to be making an assumption that Russians would fundamentally agree with the Western perspective on things.

[nett]

I wonder how complete the Russian control of information coming out of Ukraine is? With so many personal/family connections, and so many people seeing the destruction first hand, plus the existence of devices like VPNs to help bypass state control of information, it has only got to be a matter of time until a good portion of the Russian populace is confronted with the disconnect between the official account and what is happening and the reality on the ground.

Not that access to more information will necessarily change minds among those most loyal to the state perspective...if the past (and MennoNet) has taught us anything, it is that people will believe what they believe - and build a fact base to support those beliefs. But for some, I think what is happening will be a cold awakening for many in Russia.

I am again reminded of the horror and destruction of the Iraq war...and how little angst it really caused most Americans - even with a free press.

What differences between the factual events, and the Russian narratives do you think would be the most powerful in swaying the minds of Russians against the government?

[Dan Z]

I wonder how complete the Russian control of information coming out of Ukraine is? With so many personal/family connections, and so many people seeing the destruction first hand, plus the existence of devices like VPNs to help bypass state control of information, it has only got to be a matter of time until a good portion of the Russian populace is confronted with the disconnect between the official account and what is happening and the reality on the ground.

Not that access to more information will necessarily change minds among those most loyal to the state perspective...if the past (and MennoNet) has taught us anything, it is that people will believe what they believe - and build a fact base to support those beliefs. But for some, I think what is happening will be a cold awakening for many in Russia.

I am again reminded of the horror and destruction of the Iraq war...and how little angst it really caused most Americans - even with a free press.

What differences between the factual events, and the Russian narratives do you think would be the most powerful in swaying the minds of Russians against the government?

How about mounting civilian casualties including women and children, destroyed apartment buildings and homes, the wholesale destruction of cities, trainloads of refugees, hungry and cold residents trapped by the war...stuff like that.

[Dan Z]

Dan,

You seem to be making an assumption that Russians would fundamentally agree with the Western perspective on things.

No, I think it is a matter of basic humanity. I assume many Russian folks, just like anyone with an empathetic heart, would respond viscerally when confronted with reports of wanton death and destruction of civilians and neighborhoods...especially if it comes at the hands of their own government.

[nett]

I wonder how complete the Russian control of information coming out of Ukraine is? With so many personal/family connections, and so many people seeing the destruction first hand, plus the existence of devices like VPNs to help bypass state control of information, it has only got to be a matter of time until a good portion of the Russian populace is confronted with the disconnect between the official account and what is happening and the reality on the ground.

Not that access to more information will necessarily change minds among those most loyal to the state perspective...if the past (and MennoNet) has taught us anything, it is that people will believe what they believe - and build a fact base to support those beliefs. But for some, I think what is happening will be a cold awakening for many in Russia.

I am again reminded of the horror and destruction of the Iraq war...and how little angst it really caused most Americans - even with a free press.

What differences between the factual events, and the Russian narratives do you think would be the most powerful in swaying the minds of Russians against the government?

How about mounting civilian casualties including women and children, destroyed apartment buildings and homes, the wholesale destruction of cities, trainloads of refugees, hungry and cold residents trapped by the war...stuff like that.

How does that differ from the Russian narrative? Do you think Russian don't know that there is a war?

[nett]

Dan,

You seem to be making an assumption that Russians would fundamentally agree with the Western perspective on things.

No, I think it is a matter of basic humanity. I assume many Russian folks, just like anyone with an empathetic heart, would respond viscerally when confronted with reports of wanton death and destruction of civilians and neighborhoods...especially if it comes at the hands of their own government.

Why do you think that? Very few Americans reacted to atrocities when they thought the US was "fighting terror"

[Dan Z]

What differences between the factual events, and the Russian narratives do you think would be the most powerful in swaying the minds of Russians against the government?

How about mounting civilian casualties including women and children, destroyed apartment buildings and homes, the wholesale destruction of cities, trainloads of refugees, hungry and cold residents trapped by the war...stuff like that.

How does that differ from the Russian narrative? Do you think Russian don't know that there is a war?

From what I am hearing from reporting inside of Russia, and from Ukrainians with family in Russia, they know there is a "special military action" that is taking pains to avoid civilian impact...but no, they are not hearing the whole story. And the Russian free press has been essentially shut down.

Is this news to you?

[mike]

I wonder how complete the Russian control of information coming out of Ukraine is? With so many personal/family connections, and so many people seeing the destruction first hand, plus the existence of devices like VPNs to help bypass state control of information, it has only got to be a matter of time until a good portion of the Russian populace is confronted with the disconnect between the official account and what is happening and the reality on the ground.

Not that access to more information will necessarily change minds among those most loyal to the state perspective...if the past (and MennoNet) has taught us anything, it is that people will believe what they believe - and build a fact base to support those beliefs. But for some, I think what is happening will be a cold awakening for many in Russia.

I am again reminded of the horror and destruction of the Iraq war...and how little angst it really caused most Americans - even with a free press.

What differences between the factual events, and the Russian narratives do you think would be the most powerful in swaying the minds of Russians against the government?

How about mounting civilian casualties including women and children, destroyed apartment buildings and homes, the wholesale destruction of cities, trainloads of refugees, hungry and cold residents trapped by the war...stuff like that.

Or Russian military casualties, which seem to have been accidentally posted by a Russian tabloid before being quickly deleted.

[Dan Z]

Dan,

You seem to be making an assumption that Russians would fundamentally agree with the Western perspective on things.

No, I think it is a matter of basic humanity. I assume many Russian folks, just like anyone with an empathetic heart, would respond viscerally when confronted with reports of wanton death and destruction of civilians and neighborhoods...especially if it comes at the hands of their own government.

Why do you think that? Very few Americans reacted to atrocities when they thought the US was "fighting terror"

I was alive during the Vietnam war - the free press highlighting American war atrocities was part of what helped turn public opinion against the war. I would hope the same could happen in Russia - many have already risked a prison sentence in Russia to stand against what their government is doing.

Add to the fact that Ukrainian and Russia are very connected - culturally, geographically, and personally - if the info on what's really happening gets through, it could become very personal very quickly.