Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Ken]

There is zero evidence ambulances were being used as “cover” for anything. Israeli intelligence press releases are not a reliable source.

What, exactly, would ambulances be used for anyway in the middle of Gaza?

Movement of combatants.

This seems really unlikely. They have tunnels or they could use myriads of other vehicles. Or just walk. They don’t wear uniforms.

It is a case of competing claims. Still, hitting an ambulance seems poor form regardless. Here is video from the Telegraph

[ken_sylvania]

I think only once in the first 22 pages of this thread did you express any sympathy for the October 7th victims (when you said your heart goes out to those on both sides, especially the victims) but your next few posts after that seemed, to me, to be focused on detailing all of Israel's wrongs implying they were at fault for what happened.

I just went through my posts, and I don't think that's even remotely true. I read through them to see if I was doing that, because I definitely don't want to be. To me, my posts really do express compassion for both sides. In general, when I express compassion for victims, I point to victims on both sides. And I warn against massive retaliation against civilian populations, I think that creates more victims and more martyrs and continues the cycle of violence. I think that's a fair summary of most of what I have written.

Here are my posts from the first 6 pages ...

My first post in this thread starts with this sentence:

I was in Israel this summer for 10 days. It was striking to see how weighed down people are there. My heart goes out to both sides, and especially to the victims on both sides.

The start of my second post:

I think it's desperation. People who feel desperate do desperate things. I have talked to Palestinian friends who tell me they no longer feel safe in Israel. I have talked to Jewish friends who live in Israel and see this from a wide variety of different perspectives. I'm not sure they need our opinions or our weapons as much as they need our prayers and compassion.

To me, each side is committing terrorism against the other. Palestinians are not allowed to have a government to represent them, that's the reason it's not two governments at war. But Israel does not want to embrace Palestinians and give them full rights either. I cannot support the terrorism of either side. I have compassion for the victims. I see the very real need for people to have a safe place where they can live their lives, do business, live in their communities.

Both Palestinians and Israelis need to feel safe. Many Palestinians did not feel safe in their own country even before this war. Once again, I have compassion for the victims on both sides.

In my next message I agreed with this article that Matty quoted - I really do think that military force is ineffective if you just create more martyrs for the other side and get everyone mad with you:

I agree with these paragraphs from that article:

The notion that Israel can deliver security for its citizens by dividing and conquering Palestinians, crushing them into submission as a kind of colonial overlord, is both immoral and counterproductive on its own terms. Recognizing this reality will be crucial to formulating not only a humane response to Hamas’s atrocity, but an effective one.

But that's certainly not a lack of sympathy for victims on either side. That's saying creating more victims doesn't solve the problem.

In my next message I said this:

The Anabaptist view is that believers shouldn’t be getting involved in things like wars.

Amen.

Except to offer aid to the victims. And certainly to offer prayer.

That also applies to victims on both sides.

In fact, I think a main thrust of what I am saying is that much of what applies to one side also applies to the other. Just as there is no military solution for the Palestinians, there is no real military solution for Israel. As long as 70% of Palestinians are refugees, as long as most Palestinians live in the "occupied territories", there are grievances. That does not justify Hamas violence in any way - as I have said repeatedly - but it does create an environment where violence can thrive:

Only through nonviolent diplomacy and communication will the Palestinians ever achieve that which they claim they desire.

There is no military solution for either side. There are plenty of atrocities on both sides.

Israel has taken a two-state solution completely off the table. Israel has refused to give Palestinians full citizenship and full rights within Israel. Israel continues to occupy large portions of Palestinian territory that legally does not belong to it. Israel has built settlements in land that still legally belongs to Palestine. Netanyahu is trying to disable the Israeli Supreme Court so that Palestinians can have even fewer rights. Israel is basically saying "might makes right". So what is that diplomacy and communication supposed to be about?

I would like to see the international community say, loudly, that they refuse to support either side unless and until they enter into negotiations.

I could keep going. But I really do not see what you claim to see in my posts.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with what and how you are posting, except that, as I see it, you insist on holding others to a standard that you don't hold yourself to. You want us to read your posts with an understanding that you are sympathetic toward all victims - and I'm 100% on board with that - but how about you give the rest of us the same courtesy for our posts.

I think where we differ significantly is in how we judge Israel's military actions and what standard to judge them against. I feel like you have been saying that Israel's military response is outrageous when compared with international norms. I disagree. I think that any of the major military powers in history would have responded exactly as Israel is responding, if not more forcefully. This is not in any way an expression of support for how Israel is waging the war. War is evil. War is horrific. Sure, the US says they wouldn't wage such a war, but they do. Every time. Look at the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed as a result of US warmongering - and the danger to the US was far and away less than the danger Hamas demonstrated to Israel. It is almost certain that the US invasion of Afghanistan resulted in at least 15-20 times as many civilian deaths as the number of Americans killed in the 9/11 attacks. And this was a country halfway across the globe from the US. In Germany, the US initially tried precision bombing of military targets. When that didn't have the desired effect, they pivoted to intentionally targeting civilians, including churches. When the US Bomber Command sent a mission with the target being the steps of a Cathedral (I'm thinking Munich, but am not certain on the city) at noon on a Sunday morning, those pilots who objected were threatened with court martial if they refused to fly the mission. When the US bombers suffered devastating losses trying to target military targets in Japan, the commander of the 11th Bomber Command switched tactics, fire-bombing a 15 square mile section of Tokyo, one of the most densely populated areas of the earth and killing around 100,000 people (mostly civilians) in one night.
I simply don't buy the idea that what Israel is doing is outrageously worse than the average war. This is what war is! The idea that some things are "fair game" in war, and others are not is, in my opinion, a rationalization that people use to try to make themselves feel better about war. The logical extension of such rationalizations is the conclusion that the architects of the horrors of WWII drew - that the assembly line workers who assemble the bombers are just as much legitimate targets as the pilots who fly them, as well as the "civilians" who are at home "doing their part" for the war effort.

[Ken]

I simply don't buy the idea that what Israel is doing is outrageously worse than the average war. This is what war is! The idea that some things are "fair game" in war, and others are not is, in my opinion, a rationalization that people use to try to make themselves feel better about war. The logical extension of such rationalizations is the conclusion that the architects of the horrors of WWII drew - that the assembly line workers who assemble the bombers are just as much legitimate targets as the pilots who fly them, as well as the "civilians" who are at home "doing their part" for the war effort.

Israel isn't behaving worse than other combatants in other wars, For example, just in the past several years:

Syria and Russia bombing civilians in Syria
Saudi Arabia and the Yemen government bombing Houthi areas of Yemen
Russia targeting civilian populations in Ukraine
The Myanmar army targeting civilian populations in Myanmar
American drone strikes on civilian targets around the world

Arguably, all of those including the US behavior in Iraq are worse than what Israel is doing.

The reality is, fair or not, Israel is held to a different standard than other countries around the world.

The better question to ask is whether any of those other wars are justifiable and moral. I'd argue that they aren't. And we should be holding combatants everywhere to higher standards, not lowering them for Israel.

[ken_sylvania]

I simply don't buy the idea that what Israel is doing is outrageously worse than the average war. This is what war is! The idea that some things are "fair game" in war, and others are not is, in my opinion, a rationalization that people use to try to make themselves feel better about war. The logical extension of such rationalizations is the conclusion that the architects of the horrors of WWII drew - that the assembly line workers who assemble the bombers are just as much legitimate targets as the pilots who fly them, as well as the "civilians" who are at home "doing their part" for the war effort.

Israel isn't behaving worse than other combatants in other wars, For example, just in the past several years:

Syria and Russia bombing civilians in Syria
Saudi Arabia and the Yemen government bombing Houthi areas of Yemen
Russia targeting civilian populations in Ukraine
The Myanmar army targeting civilian populations in Myanmar
American drone strikes on civilian targets around the world

Arguably, all of those including the US behavior in Iraq are worse than what Israel is doing.

The reality is, fair or not, Israel is held to a different standard than other countries around the world.

The better question to ask is whether any of those other wars are justifiable and moral. I'd argue that they aren't. And we should be holding combatants everywhere to higher standards, not lowering them for Israel.

I agree with you. And just for the avoidance of any doubt - I am not arguing that what Israel is doing is justifiable and moral. I think it's somewhat understandable, but I hope I'm not giving the impression that I think it's justifiable or moral.

[GaryK]

I simply don't buy the idea that what Israel is doing is outrageously worse than the average war. This is what war is! The idea that some things are "fair game" in war, and others are not is, in my opinion, a rationalization that people use to try to make themselves feel better about war. The logical extension of such rationalizations is the conclusion that the architects of the horrors of WWII drew - that the assembly line workers who assemble the bombers are just as much legitimate targets as the pilots who fly them, as well as the "civilians" who are at home "doing their part" for the war effort.

Israel isn't behaving worse than other combatants in other wars, For example, just in the past several years:

Syria and Russia bombing civilians in Syria
Saudi Arabia and the Yemen government bombing Houthi areas of Yemen
Russia targeting civilian populations in Ukraine
The Myanmar army targeting civilian populations in Myanmar
American drone strikes on civilian targets around the world

Arguably, all of those including the US behavior in Iraq are worse than what Israel is doing.

The reality is, fair or not, Israel is held to a different standard than other countries around the world.

The better question to ask is whether any of those other wars are justifiable and moral. I'd argue that they aren't. And we should be holding combatants everywhere to higher standards, not lowering them for Israel.

My sister-in-law did numerous medical trips to Myanmar within the last 15 years and saw first hand the atrocities happening there. She has remarked numerous times how frustrating it is to her to see so much world attention on the Russia/Ukraine war while the genocide in Myanmar has been going on for years and no one seems to care.

[Robert]

[Robert]

I think I see a difference in the way IDF is treating children and the way Hamas treated children.

[Valerie]

I think I see a difference in the way IDF is treating children and the way Hamas treated children.

Hatred for Hews is ancient ongoing until Christ returns.
.Yesterday I had a customer who had moved here from Lebanon. He said there will NEVER be peace there. He went on to say he brought his family here ad it is safer but he said nowhere is really safe which is "Why I trust in Him" as he pointed heavenward.

Former terrorists I have heard their testimonies of being taught from a young age to hate the Jews as seen by that girl.

[RZehr]

I think I see a difference in the way IDF is treating children and the way Hamas treated children.

Now imagine a few Jewish children doing that to Hamas fighters in Gaza.

[Soloist]

Former terrorists I have heard their testimonies of being taught from a young age to hate the Jews as seen by that girl.

I’ve seen this everywhere. People are taught from a young age who is the enemy.

The whole thing “win hearts and minds” was targeted at this generational training. We mostly were successful in Germany and Japan but failed everywhere else.