Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Valerie]

The only two bordering countries are Egypt and Israel. Israel has a vastly larger border with Gaza than Egypt does. Yet Israel didn't allow Gaza civilians (women and children) to evacuate either.

Who has the greater responsibility for the refugees created by this conflict? Israel or Egypt?

Why would Israel want to let in people who agree with the desire to kill Jews? Wouldn't that be a tad bit risky? Why would Egypt deny them?

A majority of Palestinians simply want to live in peace with Israel. This is Israel's self-created problem not Egypt's. Under international law, as the occupying and invading force in the Gaza they are obligated to protect and care for civilian populations. Israel can defy international law of course. But to do so only erodes their standing in the world.

Egypt isn't welcoming millions of Palestinian refugees for the same exact reason that the US isn't welcoming millions of Palestinian refugees. We could easily relocate a half million or so to Ohio. Why don't we? Egypt is not stupid. They know that Israel has a long history of not permitting refugees to return.

Well of course the present situation would not be happening glad it not been for the massacre on Oct 7 and the repeated threat of Hamas calling for global Jihad. Again I will listen to the former Hamas terrorists who would disagree with you.

Also, I am not sure but Jews still may believe the OT commands for them but it seems naive to think they should accept refugees of a religion that is anti Jew. They already have enough memories of their race trying to be destroyed. I think people are expecting too much of them.

[Bootstrap]

With all that said, just like any other war, I’m not going to pick a side and wave the flag and boo anyone on the other side. I say… all lives matter, not just the Palestine people but the Israel people too.

I strongly agree with that.

I tend to look at things from a secular militaristic view when looking at this especially “your” leading questions. I called you out on it as you had given the impression (apparently to more then just me) that urban warfare could happen without civilian casualties. You also evaded what is a acceptable amount of casualties from war action.

I have never believed that urban warfare can happen without civilian casualties. But 2,000 pound bombs are not "precision weapons", and dropping them on residential neighborhoods and hospitals is a reckless disregard for human life that can only backfire in outrage. And shutting off food and water and medical supplies for over 2 million civilians does almost nothing to starve 30,000 militants. Most of the people dying are not militants, they are civilians.

From a Christian perspective or even a basic respect for human rights, I find that hard to justify.

And I keep asking what the military objective is. Do they think people will be less angry if they slaughter large numbers of them? Or that they can eliminate Hamas by indiscriminate warfare on Palestinians?

And there are international agreements about Urban warfare ...

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/ourrolepol ... 052022.pdf

We recall the obligations on all parties to armed conflict to comply with International Humanitarian
Law under all circumstances, including when conducting military operations in populated areas.
We recall in particular the obligation to distinguish between combatants and civilians as well as
between civilian objects and military objectives at all times in the conduct of military operations,
and to direct attacks only against military objectives. We recall further the prohibitions against
indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks, and the obligation to take all feasible precautions in
attack and against the effects of attacks. We also recall the obligations under International
Humanitarian Law related to the general protection of civilians against dangers arising from
military operations, and allowing and facilitating rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian
relief for civilians in need.

I definitely agree with what you say here:

Hamas certainly didn’t care about causing civilian casualties and perhaps Israel doesn’t either.

And that's the problem. I think it's important to distinguish Hamas from Palestinians, and I think it's important to distinguish Likud from Israelis, but I think there are way too many people who don't care if people on "the other side" die. Yes, Hamas is even worse than Israel, but both are pretty bad.

Any and I say any military action will result in civilian casualties. This is considered acceptable losses generally if they can spin it.
You do not understand military and saying you do by talking to civilians you only express that you don’t. We don’t think the same way or interact the same way. We have developed a culture that remains long after the military. If you want to understand how the military chooses to conduct its tactics, you have to understand the weapons, the training and who is leading the action.

I think there's a lot of talking past each other. In my last post on this subject, I said that you're right, I don't understand military, I understand refugees and other victims of war. I have talked to a lot of them. And I have talked to quite a few historians and read a fair amount on history.

I think most wars don't even state clear military objectives, and if they do, they don't meet them. They cost way more than governments initially predict in human lives and in money, and they last much longer than participants predict. At the end of a war, there's generally a huge amount of devastation to both sides and not a whole lot of good in return. So I hear you when you say, essentially, "this is how wars are fought". But when I look at the wars America has fought since World War II, I don't think most of them did us any good.

Israel does need to defend itself. The attacks on October 7th really were outrageous, and Israelis feel very vulnerable now in a way that they didn't just a month ago. I don't think Israel needs to be dropping 2,000 pound bombs on residential neighborhoods and hospitals or starving out millions of civilians. And I think that kind of thing does result in outrage. Palestinians are feeling vulnerable too.

[Soloist]

I have never believed that urban warfare can happen without civilian casualties. But 2,000 pound bombs are not "precision weapons", and dropping them on residential neighborhoods and hospitals is a reckless disregard for human life that can only backfire in outrage. And shutting off food and water and medical supplies for over 2 million civilians does almost nothing to starve 30,000 militants. Most of the people dying are not militants, they are civilians.

I don’t disagree, but do you know what weapons Israel has available for Urban? The US has precision missiles designed to take out a single room in a apartment complex but I don’t know how expensive it is or if it actually worked as intended.
As for cutting off supplies, Hamas is going to take by force any supplies put in so strictly from a military perspective, it’s unwise to let anything in. You look through history siege warfare has always targeted civilians as a way of putting pressure on the leadership to surrender. Now will it work when we’re talking a terrorist organization? That’s the real problem. Most nations would surrender when they can’t get supplies in and there’s no realistic chance of breaking to somewhere else to get supplies.

From a Christian perspective or even a basic respect for human rights, I find that hard to justify.

Of course, but you also find warfare hard to justify.

And I keep asking what the military objective is. Do they think people will be less angry if they slaughter large numbers of them? Or that they can eliminate Hamas by indiscriminate warfare on Palestinians?

My guess is they don’t actually know.

And there are international agreements about Urban warfare ...

Law goes out the window when it’s convenient. The question really is whether any other big countries are going to do anything about it.

And that's the problem. I think it's important to distinguish Hamas from Palestinians, and I think it's important to distinguish Likud from Israelis, but I think there are way too many people who don't care if people on "the other side" die. Yes, Hamas is even worse than Israel, but both are pretty bad.

Military is not who you want doing this though. After you’ve been shot by someone who surrenders, had a child blow up in your face, and so on you become a very poor judge of who is a threat and who is not.

Ultimately though there’s no good way to do this.

So I hear you when you say, essentially, "this is how wars are fought". But when I look at the wars America has fought since World War II, I don't think most of them did us any good.

Most of these wars were very good for America. They weren’t good for the troops they weren’t good for those we attacked… but our economy loved it. US economy is driven by war. When you look through our history there has maybe been a period of 4 years continuous where we have not been in conflict. I’m not an economist… just my observations of American wars and who is deciding to take us to war.

Israel does need to defend itself. The attacks on October 7th really were outrageous, and Israelis feel very vulnerable now in a way that they didn't just a month ago. I don't think Israel needs to be dropping 2,000 pound bombs on residential neighborhoods and hospitals or starving out millions of civilians. And I think that kind of thing does result in outrage. Palestinians are feeling vulnerable too.

I don’t think anyone disagrees that Israel needs to defend itself. The disagreement is centered over what they’re doing. So far it seems like all the media is coming from Hamas. Mind you, I’m not following it that closely. 2000 pound bombs are excessive unless you’re targeting a hardened complex. To know if it was intentional, you’d have to know what the guidance system in the bomb was. You’d also have to know where they were “aiming”.
My guess is they’re aiming for tunnels and they don’t care about what’s above it. Hamas probably dug them under things specifically to cause more outrage when Israel attacked it.

[Bootstrap]

I don’t disagree, but do you know what weapons Israel has available for Urban? The US has precision missiles designed to take out a single room in a apartment complex but I don’t know how expensive it is or if it actually worked as intended.

I haven't researched this, but Israeli government officials certainly brag about their precision weapons and drones. And they have used the word "precision" repeatedly in their press releases, but I'm not convinced that's what we are seeing on the ground. Israel is widely held to have a very modern and very powerful military.

Here's what ChatGPT thinks - is this accurate?

As of my last knowledge update in September 2021, Israel is known to possess advanced precision-guided missiles and drones. Israel has invested significantly in developing its defense technology capabilities, which include a variety of missile systems and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), commonly referred to as drones. These capabilities are designed for both defense and deterrence purposes.

Israel has developed and deployed precision-guided missiles capable of striking specific targets with high accuracy. These missiles are used for a range of purposes, including defense against threats, counterterrorism operations, and maintaining a credible deterrent posture.

Additionally, Israel is known for its expertise in drone technology. It has a diverse fleet of UAVs used for surveillance, reconnaissance, intelligence gathering, and, in some cases, offensive operations. Israeli drones are used for monitoring border areas, tracking hostile activities, and responding to security threats.

It's important to note that defense capabilities, including missile systems and drones, can evolve over time. Israel continually invests in research and development to stay at the forefront of defense technology. For the most up-to-date information on Israel's military capabilities, it's advisable to consult reliable news sources and official statements from the Israeli government or military.

[Soloist]

I don’t know,They could be using it as another word for accuracy. An accurate missile is not necessary precise.

[Robert]

I have never believed that urban warfare can happen without civilian casualties. But 2,000 pound bombs are not "precision weapons", and dropping them on residential neighborhoods and hospitals is a reckless disregard for human life that can only backfire in outrage.

Who is saying Israel is doing this? If your source is Hamas or a Palestinian source, they may being dishonest. Much of the other things IDF is doing is counter to your statement here. I will give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise by a source outside of Palestinian control.

Just as the Ambulances they took out were actually being used by Hamas as a cover or to make Israel look bad by destroying them. This conflict and the rallies in many countries are more a propaganda campaign then factual evidence.

[Josh]

There is zero evidence ambulances were being used as “cover” for anything. Israeli intelligence press releases are not a reliable source.

What, exactly, would ambulances be used for anyway in the middle of Gaza?

[Ken]

There is zero evidence ambulances were being used as “cover” for anything. Israeli intelligence press releases are not a reliable source.

What, exactly, would ambulances be used for anyway in the middle of Gaza?

Movement of combatants.

[Josh]

There is zero evidence ambulances were being used as “cover” for anything. Israeli intelligence press releases are not a reliable source.

What, exactly, would ambulances be used for anyway in the middle of Gaza?

Movement of combatants.

This seems really unlikely. They have tunnels or they could use myriads of other vehicles. Or just walk. They don’t wear uniforms.

[Ken]

I have never believed that urban warfare can happen without civilian casualties. But 2,000 pound bombs are not "precision weapons", and dropping them on residential neighborhoods and hospitals is a reckless disregard for human life that can only backfire in outrage.

Who is saying Israel is doing this? If your source is Hamas or a Palestinian source, they may being dishonest. Much of the other things IDF is doing is counter to your statement here. I will give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise by a source outside of Palestinian control.

Just as the Ambulances they took out were actually being used by Hamas as a cover or to make Israel look bad by destroying them. This conflict and the rallies in many countries are more a propaganda campaign then factual evidence.

I also read this in the NYT. It was a fairly extensive independent analysis. Here's the gift link to bypass the paywall: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/03/worl ... =url-share

Israel Used 2,000-Pound Bombs in Strike on Jabaliya, Analysis Shows
Impact craters from the Oct. 31 strike on the densely packed Gaza neighborhood are approximately 40 feet wide. Israel said it was aiming at underground Hamas targets.

Christoph KoettlAinara TiefenthälerHaley WillisAlexander Cardia
By Christoph Koettl, Ainara Tiefenthäler, Haley Willis and Alexander Cardia
Nov. 3, 2023
Israel used at least two 2,000-pound bombs during an airstrike on Tuesday on Jabaliya, a dense area just north of Gaza City, according to experts and an analysis conducted by The New York Times of satellite images, photos and videos.

Hospital officials said that dozens of civilians were killed and hundreds wounded in the strike. Israel said it was targeting a Hamas commander and fighters, as well as the network of underground tunnels used by Hamas, the militant group that controls Gaza, to hide weapons and fighters.

Israel’s use of such bombs, the second largest type in its arsenal, is not uncommon, and the size is generally the largest that most militaries use on a regular basis. They can be used to target underground infrastructure, but their deployment in a dense and heavily populated area like Jabaliya has raised questions of proportionality — whether Israel’s intended targets justify the civilian death toll and destruction its strikes cause.

The evidence and analysis show that the Israeli military dropped at least two 2,000-pound bombs on the site. Two impact craters are about 40 feet wide — dimensions consistent with underground explosions that this type of weapon would produce in light, sandy soil, according to a 2016 technical study by Armament Research Services, a munitions research consultancy....

And the craters they are talking about