Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Ken]

It is a terrible shame that Israel gave warnings for people to evacuate and Hamas and bordering countries made this almost impossible.

The only two bordering countries are Egypt and Israel. Israel has a vastly larger border with Gaza than Egypt does. Yet Israel didn't allow Gaza civilians (women and children) to evacuate either.

Who has the greater responsibility for the refugees created by this conflict? Israel or Egypt?

Why would Israel want to let in people who agree with the desire to kill Jews? Wouldn't that be a tad bit risky? Why would Egypt deny them?

A majority of Palestinians simply want to live in peace with Israel. This is Israel's self-created problem not Egypt's. Under international law, as the occupying and invading force in the Gaza they are obligated to protect and care for civilian populations. Israel can defy international law of course. But to do so only erodes their standing in the world.

Egypt isn't welcoming millions of Palestinian refugees for the same exact reason that the US isn't welcoming millions of Palestinian refugees. We could easily relocate a half million or so to Ohio. Why don't we? Egypt is not stupid. They know that Israel has a long history of not permitting refugees to return.

[Szdfan]

The only two bordering countries are Egypt and Israel. Israel has a vastly larger border with Gaza than Egypt does. Yet Israel didn't allow Gaza civilians (women and children) to evacuate either.

Who has the greater responsibility for the refugees created by this conflict? Israel or Egypt?

Why would Israel want to let in people who agree with the desire to kill Jews? Wouldn't that be a tad bit risky? Why would Egypt deny them?

A majority of Palestinians simply want to live in peace with Israel. This is Israel's self-created problem not Egypt's. Under international law, as the occupying and invading force in the Gaza they are obligated to protect and care for civilian populations. Israel can defy international law of course. But to do so only erodes their standing in the world.

Egypt isn't welcoming millions of Palestinian refugees for the same exact reason that the US isn't welcoming millions of Palestinian refugees. We could easily relocate a half million or so to Ohio. Why don't we? Egypt is not stupid. They know that Israel has a long history of not permitting refugees to return.

It seems odd to me when people who complain about the US allowing too many immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers also complain about other countries not allowing refugees in.

[Josh]

A majority of Palestinians simply want to live in peace with Israel. This is Israel's self-created problem not Egypt's. Under international law, as the occupying and invading force in the Gaza they are obligated to protect and care for civilian populations. Israel can defy international law of course. But to do so only erodes their standing in the world.

I agree, and a majority of Israels simply want to live in peace as well. Both Israeli and Gazan governments, however, have been choosing war, not peace.

Of course, Israel's official stance is that Gaza is its territory and that this is an "internal matter"... thus they are already obligated to protect and care for the Gazan civilian population.

Egypt isn't welcoming millions of Palestinian refugees for the same exact reason that the US isn't welcoming millions of Palestinian refugees. We could easily relocate a half million or so to Ohio. Why don't we? Egypt is not stupid. They know that Israel has a long history of not permitting refugees to return.

Jordan did exactly that and is now half Palestinian and absorbed a great deal of social change not to mention poverty. (The West Bank was the much poorer part of Palestine; Gaza historically was wealthier, as coastal cities tend to be versus mountain villages.)

When I grew up in Ohio my best neighbourhood friend was a Palestinian boy my age who lived 3 door down. (There is a significant Palestinian population in Lakewood.) His family was an odd situation - he called them his "triple brothers" or "cousin brothers", and eventually we figured out his dad had multiple wives and those were his half-brothers.

[Josh]

Spot on, Robert. Another note: China has the largest military in the world and they are backing Iran and their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah. China is not Christian.

So does Russia. Russia identifies as Christian.

Indeed, and the Muslim world isn't exactly politically unified. Saudi Arabia and Iran are enemies, even though both are Muslim. Iran and Russia seem to have very close military links and it seems Iran is supplying a lot of military arms to Russia these days. Yet Iran is Muslim and Russia is Orthodox Christian, explicitly so (although 10% of Russia's population is Muslim). China is neutral towards both, yet China's official stance is secular.

Azerbaijan and Israel cooperate closely, even though Azerbaijan is nominally Muslim.

[Ken]

Egypt isn't welcoming millions of Palestinian refugees for the same exact reason that the US isn't welcoming millions of Palestinian refugees. We could easily relocate a half million or so to Ohio. Why don't we? Egypt is not stupid. They know that Israel has a long history of not permitting refugees to return.

Jordan did exactly that and is now half Palestinian and absorbed a great deal of social change not to mention poverty. (The West Bank was the much poorer part of Palestine; Gaza historically was wealthier, as coastal cities tend to be versus mountain villages.)

Yes, and in 1970 Palestinians and the PLO repaid Jordan by trying to foment a coup against the Jordanian government and essentially running amok as a rogue army/violent mafia within Jordan's borders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September Until Jordan finally expelled the PLO to Lebanon where the PLO proceeded to ignite an immensely bloody civil war that ultimately destroyed Lebanon's multi-ethnic society and led to the rise of Hezbollah.

Fast forward to 1990-1991 and you have Kuwait expelling 350,000 Palestinian refugees living in Kuwait after the PLO allied itself with Saddam Hussein in his invasion of Kuwait.

As much as Israel has behaved badly in this conflict, Palestinian authorities have behaved worse. Not just Hamas which is only the latest iteration. But pretty much every official Palestinian organ going back to 1948 and before.

[Robert]

It seems odd to me when people who complain about the US allowing too many immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers also complain about other countries not allowing refugees in.

When other countries get to the numbers the US has just in this year, I will stop complaining.

If you search, you will find I have called for a very open immigration policy. I say let lots in, just do it legally so they have documentation.

[Ken]

It seems odd to me when people who complain about the US allowing too many immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers also complain about other countries not allowing refugees in.

When other countries get to the numbers the US has just in this year, I will stop complaining.

If you search, you will find I have called for a very open immigration policy. I say let lots in, just do it legally so they have documentation.

My immigration plan would be to allow more immigration into the US in places that need more immigration and new blood to remain economically viable. Places like Nebraska and Kanas that need more immigration and investment. And replace the current H-2B program that is employer-based with one that is regionally based. And possibly industry-based.

This could be accomplished by creating a system of geographically-restricted work visas that are only valid in specific geographic zones that need new immigrant labor and investment. Immigrants would be free to travel anywhere, but could only legally work in specific areas. And once they achieve citizenship then they are free to live their lives as they see fit like any other American.

But expect I such a plan would have zero chance of ever happening for a whole lot of reasons.

[Robert]

My immigration plan would be to allow more immigration into the US in places that need more immigration and new blood to remain economically viable. Places like Nebraska and Kanas that need more immigration and investment. And replace the current H-2B program that is employer-based with one that is regionally based. And possibly industry-based.

This could be accomplished by creating a system of geographically-restricted work visas that are only valid in specific geographic zones that need new immigrant labor and investment. Immigrants would be free to travel anywhere, but could only legally work in specific areas. And once they achieve citizenship then they are free to live their lives as they see fit like any other American.

But expect I such a plan would have zero chance of ever happening for a whole lot of reasons.

I would have no problem with that idea.

[Ken]

My immigration plan would be to allow more immigration into the US in places that need more immigration and new blood to remain economically viable. Places like Nebraska and Kanas that need more immigration and investment. And replace the current H-2B program that is employer-based with one that is regionally based. And possibly industry-based.

This could be accomplished by creating a system of geographically-restricted work visas that are only valid in specific geographic zones that need new immigrant labor and investment. Immigrants would be free to travel anywhere, but could only legally work in specific areas. And once they achieve citizenship then they are free to live their lives as they see fit like any other American.

But expect I such a plan would have zero chance of ever happening for a whole lot of reasons.

I would have no problem with that idea.

This is a vast country and large stretches of it from Alaska to the Great Plains is un-populating due to lack of young people willing to live there and invest their lives there. Towns are withering, main streets are closing up, employers can't find labor. A sensible immigration policy would be to target immigration (Palestinian, Guatemalan, etc.) into those places that need new blood. There are plenty of them. But because it is sensible (or seems sensible to me) probably means such an idea will never see the light of day.

[Bootstrap]

I think only once in the first 22 pages of this thread did you express any sympathy for the October 7th victims (when you said your heart goes out to those on both sides, especially the victims) but your next few posts after that seemed, to me, to be focused on detailing all of Israel's wrongs implying they were at fault for what happened.

I just went through my posts, and I don't think that's even remotely true. I read through them to see if I was doing that, because I definitely don't want to be. To me, my posts really do express compassion for both sides. In general, when I express compassion for victims, I point to victims on both sides. And I warn against massive retaliation against civilian populations, I think that creates more victims and more martyrs and continues the cycle of violence. I think that's a fair summary of most of what I have written.

Here are my posts from the first 6 pages ...

My first post in this thread starts with this sentence:

I was in Israel this summer for 10 days. It was striking to see how weighed down people are there. My heart goes out to both sides, and especially to the victims on both sides.

The start of my second post:

I think it's desperation. People who feel desperate do desperate things. I have talked to Palestinian friends who tell me they no longer feel safe in Israel. I have talked to Jewish friends who live in Israel and see this from a wide variety of different perspectives. I'm not sure they need our opinions or our weapons as much as they need our prayers and compassion.

To me, each side is committing terrorism against the other. Palestinians are not allowed to have a government to represent them, that's the reason it's not two governments at war. But Israel does not want to embrace Palestinians and give them full rights either. I cannot support the terrorism of either side. I have compassion for the victims. I see the very real need for people to have a safe place where they can live their lives, do business, live in their communities.

Both Palestinians and Israelis need to feel safe. Many Palestinians did not feel safe in their own country even before this war. Once again, I have compassion for the victims on both sides.

In my next message I agreed with this article that Matty quoted - I really do think that military force is ineffective if you just create more martyrs for the other side and get everyone mad with you:

I agree with these paragraphs from that article:

The notion that Israel can deliver security for its citizens by dividing and conquering Palestinians, crushing them into submission as a kind of colonial overlord, is both immoral and counterproductive on its own terms. Recognizing this reality will be crucial to formulating not only a humane response to Hamas’s atrocity, but an effective one.

But that's certainly not a lack of sympathy for victims on either side. That's saying creating more victims doesn't solve the problem.

In my next message I said this:

The Anabaptist view is that believers shouldn’t be getting involved in things like wars.

Amen.

Except to offer aid to the victims. And certainly to offer prayer.

That also applies to victims on both sides.

In fact, I think a main thrust of what I am saying is that much of what applies to one side also applies to the other. Just as there is no military solution for the Palestinians, there is no real military solution for Israel. As long as 70% of Palestinians are refugees, as long as most Palestinians live in the "occupied territories", there are grievances. That does not justify Hamas violence in any way - as I have said repeatedly - but it does create an environment where violence can thrive:

Only through nonviolent diplomacy and communication will the Palestinians ever achieve that which they claim they desire.

There is no military solution for either side. There are plenty of atrocities on both sides.

Israel has taken a two-state solution completely off the table. Israel has refused to give Palestinians full citizenship and full rights within Israel. Israel continues to occupy large portions of Palestinian territory that legally does not belong to it. Israel has built settlements in land that still legally belongs to Palestine. Netanyahu is trying to disable the Israeli Supreme Court so that Palestinians can have even fewer rights. Israel is basically saying "might makes right". So what is that diplomacy and communication supposed to be about?

I would like to see the international community say, loudly, that they refuse to support either side unless and until they enter into negotiations.

I could keep going. But I really do not see what you claim to see in my posts.