Major attack on Israel by Hamas

[Josh]

Let's just say I value the testimony of a former Hamas terrorist and son of one of the founders who speaks into this whole situation, over us who try to make sense of it on a Mennonite forum. Plus many testimonies of former Muslims who warn. They will never not have eliminating Jews from their objectives and if America is Big Satan and Israel Little Satan in their eyes they are not ever going to seek peace. You have to listen to those who know what they're talking about. It is a terrible shame that Israel gave warnings for people to evacuate and Hamas and bordering countries made this almost impossible.

We go back to- what is Israel supposed to do when they know the goal of Islam is to destroy every Jew. It is a horrible reality.

I’m not really going to take a former Hamas member’s word that it’s OK to bomb hospitals and churches.

Islam does not teach that every Jew should be destroyed.

[Josh]

It is a terrible shame that Israel gave warnings for people to evacuate and Hamas and bordering countries made this almost impossible.

The only two bordering countries are Egypt and Israel. Israel has a vastly larger border with Gaza than Egypt does. Yet Israel didn't allow Gaza civilians (women and children) to evacuate either.

Who has the greater responsibility for the refugees created by this conflict? Israel or Egypt?

Why would Israel want to let in people who agree with the desire to kill Jews?

Israel has been letting in millions of Palestinians on a daily basis for cheap labour. This has been going on for decades. It’s a good question to ask, “Why?”

But the reality is that letting busloads of Palestinians in has been official government policy and frankly the economy would grind to a halt without them. They do basically every menial job.

[Robert]

Islam does not teach that every Jew should be destroyed.

It actually does in a way. All others are infidels, Christians and Jews alike. More of the moderate Muslims ignore that part as many Christian denominations ignore parts like women should be quiet in church.

This is why the Muslim started attacking the US ships in the 1700's. This is why Jefferson started up the Marines.

The mindset in the Muslim world is not like ours. It is incorrect to project our morals and mind frame onto them.

Islam teaches only Muslims are human. Infidels are equal to other animals. Violence is an acceptable way to deal with situations and might is a sign of favor from Allah. Might makes right.

These things are in the culture and every child learns it growing up. Leaders like Saddam Hussien and others can only do the things they do because Allah allows it. So if a person or group gains power and takes over, it is a clear sign that Allah has ordained it. Allah also ordains any action that brings the goal of an Islamic world. The end justifies the means. This is how the slater of Israelis is accepted and supported by the majority of Palestinians.

I can not speak to the insanity of those in western countries rallying for Palestine right now. While I do not want a war or slaughter of innocents on either side, there is no way I would march for Palestine. I would hope for a two state solution, but as Ben Shapiro said, if Hamas would lay down their arms right now, that would happen. If Israel would lay down their arms, there would be another holocaust. This is the difference of the two sides.

While many Muslim states are brokering peace agreements with Israel, they would not stand in the way of the Muslims that would wipe modern day Israel off the map. Most Muslims would have no issue if that would happen and little issue with the way it would happen. Most may not participate, but few would even speak out against it. How many Muslim states spoke out against the Hamas raids that killed innocents and cooked infants in ovens as their mothers watched? I have heard none. All Egypt has done is close their border to Palestine because they know it will interfere with the tourism trade they so desperately need. No Israel is not stopping them. They clearly stated they would not let any in and are increasing the size of the wall they have against Gaza. They have not spoken out against the attack. No Muslim states have that I have found.

I do not agree with Israel doing the same. I do see them approaching with a more western mindset. They are not targeting innocents, but innocents are dying from their actions. I disagree with that too. Might does not make right for Hamas or Israel. I disagreed with the US going into Afghanistan and Iraq. I disagree with the State department and CIA and the way they meddle in other country's affairs. Yet, I know there are two kingdoms and I must stay connected and loyal to the one that has Christ at the center. I can not expect the other kingdom of this world to act as I would. I can speak to it and call it towards Christlikeness whenever I can, but I have little expectations.

I do not expect Israel to act any better than Hamas, but I do have hope and I do see it is. I hope they act less like them more and more.

[barnhart]

Robert, I think you are allowing one group of Muslims to define your view of them all. The Islamic world had long periods of openness and tolerance. Nearly everything we know from the ancient Greeks is due to Islamic scholarship. Christians and Jews lived peacefully under Islamic rule for hundreds of years. As a Christian, I reserve the right to judge between authentic Christianity and heresy, that also means I should extend the same courtesy to others, allowing them to interpret their own holy texts and adjudicating how to put it into practice.

Allowing Hamas and Isis to represent all of Islam is a bit like talking George Bush and his doctrine of preemptive war as true Christianity.

[Robert]

Robert, I think you are allowing one group of Muslims to define your view of them all.

I stated that some do ignore the part where others are infidels. I did a deep dive into Islam a while back and learned much of what I shared.

Not all Muslims are going to attack others, yet the teachings of Islam allows it and can easily be justified. The teachings of Jesus are opposite. Many Christians ignore some parts and will fight in wars or serve as law enforcement, but the teachings of Jesus are pretty clear that we should not.

[Soloist]

Robert, I think you are allowing one group of Muslims to define your view of them all. The Islamic world had long periods of openness and tolerance. Nearly everything we know from the ancient Greeks is due to Islamic scholarship. Christians and Jews lived peacefully under Islamic rule for hundreds of years. As a Christian, I reserve the right to judge between authentic Christianity and heresy, that also means I should extend the same courtesy to others, allowing them to interpret their own holy texts and adjudicating how to put it into practice.

Allowing Hamas and Isis to represent all of Islam is a bit like talking George Bush and his doctrine of preemptive war as true Christianity.

I think you would benefit from reading the history of Christians under Islamic rule.
Here is some fascinating reads on historic debates between Christians and Muslims. Note, these are most likely all Orthodox monks in the debate but it gives a picture into the interactions of Muslims and Christians.
https://www.answering-islam.org/Books/A ... /index.htm
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/ ... debate.asp

[barnhart]

Not all Muslims are going to attack others, yet the teachings of Islam allows it and can easily be justified. The teachings of Jesus are opposite. Many Christians ignore some parts and will fight in wars or serve as law enforcement, but the teachings of Jesus are pretty clear that we should not.

Yes, it is quite ironic that most of the military power in the world claims the name of Jesus. This idolatry, true followers of Jesus are a minority. But remember the Bible contains a lot of violence, Jesus' disciples have interpreted that as a time in the past when God worked in different ways through his people or in a future epoch. If Muslims wish to make that shift with their holy texts, I support them.

I don't see Islam and following Jesus as ideologies in the same category, one claims to be a kingdom of this world and one does not.

[MaxPC]

Islam does not teach that every Jew should be destroyed.

It actually does in a way. All others are infidels, Christians and Jews alike. More of the moderate Muslims ignore that part as many Christian denominations ignore parts like women should be quiet in church.

This is why the Muslim started attacking the US ships in the 1700's. This is why Jefferson started up the Marines.

The mindset in the Muslim world is not like ours. It is incorrect to project our morals and mind frame onto them.

Islam teaches only Muslims are human. Infidels are equal to other animals. Violence is an acceptable way to deal with situations and might is a sign of favor from Allah. Might makes right.

These things are in the culture and every child learns it growing up. Leaders like Saddam Hussien and others can only do the things they do because Allah allows it. So if a person or group gains power and takes over, it is a clear sign that Allah has ordained it. Allah also ordains any action that brings the goal of an Islamic world. The end justifies the means. This is how the slater of Israelis is accepted and supported by the majority of Palestinians.

I can not speak to the insanity of those in western countries rallying for Palestine right now. While I do not want a war or slaughter of innocents on either side, there is no way I would march for Palestine. I would hope for a two state solution, but as Ben Shapiro said, if Hamas would lay down their arms right now, that would happen. If Israel would lay down their arms, there would be another holocaust. This is the difference of the two sides.

While many Muslim states are brokering peace agreements with Israel, they would not stand in the way of the Muslims that would wipe modern day Israel off the map. Most Muslims would have no issue if that would happen and little issue with the way it would happen. Most may not participate, but few would even speak out against it. How many Muslim states spoke out against the Hamas raids that killed innocents and cooked infants in ovens as their mothers watched? I have heard none. All Egypt has done is close their border to Palestine because they know it will interfere with the tourism trade they so desperately need. No Israel is not stopping them. They clearly stated they would not let any in and are increasing the size of the wall they have against Gaza. They have not spoken out against the attack. No Muslim states have that I have found.

I do not agree with Israel doing the same. I do see them approaching with a more western mindset. They are not targeting innocents, but innocents are dying from their actions. I disagree with that too. Might does not make right for Hamas or Israel. I disagreed with the US going into Afghanistan and Iraq. I disagree with the State department and CIA and the way they meddle in other country's affairs. Yet, I know there are two kingdoms and I must stay connected and loyal to the one that has Christ at the center. I can not expect the other kingdom of this world to act as I would. I can speak to it and call it towards Christlikeness whenever I can, but I have little expectations.

I do not expect Israel to act any better than Hamas, but I do have hope and I do see it is. I hope they act less like them more and more.

Spot on, Robert. Another note: China has the largest military in the world and they are backing Iran and their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah. China is not Christian.

[Soloist]

Yes, it is quite ironic that most of the military power in the world claims the name of Jesus. This idolatry, true followers of Jesus are a minority. But remember the Bible contains a lot of violence, Jesus' disciples have interpreted that as a time in the past when God worked in different ways through his people or in a future epoch. If Muslims wish to make that shift with their holy texts, I support them.

I don't see Islam and following Jesus as ideologies in the same category, one claims to be a kingdom of this world and one does not.

The difference is that the Old Testament laid out this before Jesus whereas the Quran does not. The example of their prophet is the sword, the example of our King is peace.
Muslims who do what you propose would be leaving the Quran as similarly as universalists do the Bible.

[Szdfan]

Spot on, Robert. Another note: China has the largest military in the world and they are backing Iran and their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah. China is not Christian.

So does Russia. Russia identifies as Christian.