Russia Invades Ukraine 2022

[Bootstrap]

Boot, you know better.

I'm telling the truth and the facts according to the best of my knowledge.

If you can engage with these facts and provide better evidence, you might be able to change my mind. But strong adjectives are not strong evidence. You seem to believe Putin is telling the truth about a bunch of things that seem false to me. If you have strong evidence for these claims, please provide it, just as I have provided evidence for my claims.

We both know that the world is swimming in war propaganda. The only way through that fog is either (1) to avoid trying to know all the answers, or (2) to really work hard to stick to verifiable fact. Actually, the best course of action may be to do both.

[nett]

Boot, you know better.

I'm telling the truth and the facts according to the best of my knowledge.

If you can engage with these facts and provide better evidence, you might be able to change my mind. But strong adjectives are not strong evidence. You seem to believe Putin is telling the truth about a bunch of things that seem false to me. If you have strong evidence for these claims, please provide it, just as I have provided evidence for my claims.

We both know that the world is swimming in war propaganda. The only way through that fog is either (1) to avoid trying to know all the answers, or (2) to really work hard to stick to verifiable fact. Actually, the best course of action may be to do both.

But somehow you just know that the Ukraine is completely innocent, and Russia did all the bad things.

I can't wait to hear about your defense of the Asov battalion. Let me guess, Bellingcat has a report that says they're not really neo-nazis, and actually nice people.

[temporal1]

thus, as a U.S. citizen (more+more being labeled “white U.S. citizen”) i would find it logical to refer to these folks as: Russian-Ukrainian civilians.

Yes, that would be more neutral terminology.

Here's what people in the Donbas would like to be called. This gives the results of two polls, one in 2016, one in 2019. Click on the image to see it in larger print.
Screenshot 2022-10-13
The polls address a lot of other things too, if you read it.

Josh, oj, and i are U.S. citizens, my response was about applying present day U.S. “math”/logic to how to reference individuals in Ukraine. This is not to suggest U.S. logic is right or best. It’s just to try to understand each other and the far-away situation better.

Your graph is interesting, it may or may not reflect present day “wants”/alliances /official designations. War changes things.
Ukraine may not yet have incorporated the West’s love of “claims based on desires” rather than facts. “Identity: First choice”
In the U.S., “first choice” can now mean “anything you want.”

In the past, the questions might have been presented: “Place of birth:” “Language:”
Then, stats would determine numbers of citizens born elsewhere, their first language, etc. It wasn’t as .. ephemeral.

Anyway.
In the U.S., we are now accustomed to recognizing ethnicities, and skin color, right along with citizenship. Wanted or not.
Ukranian-American! Russian-American! It’s useful for partisan politics.

You know, in the cases of the U.S. military in Pearl Harbor, later, civilians in the Twin Towers, military in the Pentagon, all these were surprised and unprepared. Response came later.

Not so with Feb 24.
From what i’ve read recently, for days-weeks-months, maybe years, world leaders knew, churches knew, citizens knew about impending military strikes. It’s unsettling how planned+prepared the (U.S.) / NATO / West was. Not a flinch.
Ukraine was the designated battle ground.

.. What if .. investments had been made on prevention, rather than military response? ..
what represents a self-fulfilling prophesy? in all these months, why no diplomacy rhetoric?

Russia acted. The U.S. responded immediately, and has escalated.

Tons of propaganda! Certainly. On both sides. Not sure about the idea U.S. propaganda is either more credible or less evil.
We WANT it to be! Too much evidence to allow it to go unquestioned.

They knew it was coming:
Feb 21 2022 / Christianity Today / Amid War and Rumors of War, Ukraine Pastors Preach and Prepare
(UPDATED) Sunday sermons from Baptists and Pentecostals focus on peacemaking but also aftermath of any Russian invasion,
as Putin on Monday recognizes independence of Donetsk and Luhansk.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/ ... dence.html

.. Facing imminent war, Ukrainian evangelicals preached peace the day before Russian President Vladimir Putin dramatically escalated tensions by recognizing the independence of two separatist regions on Monday evening. ..

In this article, it’s about Putin and Biden, Ukraine/Zelensky are (not seen as primary deciders) suggesting what some describe as another U.S. proxy war.

.. Though the situation remains unstable, Putin and Biden tentatively agreed to a coming summit later this month—if there is no invasion. But then Russia proceeded to recognize the independence of the two breakaway regions today, and authorized the sending of “peacekeeping functions.” ..

Feb 27 2022 / Christianity Today / The Ukrainian Needed Prayer. The Russian Volunteered.
How two Christian friends, divided by borders but united by their passion for evangelism, brought a prayer meeting to tears as war raged.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/20 ... -ifes.html

None of this happened out of the blue. Not in high government, not militaries, not civilians, not churches.
On this forum, we were discussing Canada’s Truck Convoy.

Now we’re caught up with Ukraine/Russia, some are saying we should be focused on China.
Not to mention our neighbor, Haiti. Page 43: http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=420

[ken_sylvania]

thus, as a U.S. citizen (more+more being labeled “white U.S. citizen”) i would find it logical to refer to these folks as: Russian-Ukrainian civilians.

Yes, that would be more neutral terminology.

Here's what people in the Donbas would like to be called. This gives the results of two polls, one in 2016, one in 2019. Click on the image to see it in larger print.


Screenshot 2022-10-13 135508.png


The polls address a lot of other things too, if you read it.

Sounds good. In the interest of sensitive, neutral terminology let's call them Ethnic Ukrainian-Ethnic Russian-Mixed ethnic Ukrainian & Russian-Ukrainian Citizan-Russian Citizan-Dual Ukrainian-Russian-Person from Donbas-Bilingual Ukrainian/Russian-Other civilians.

[temporal1]

.. Ethnic Ukrainian-Ethnic Russian-Mixed ethnic Ukrainian & Russian-Ukrainian Citizan-Russian Citizan-Dual Ukrainian-Russian-Person from Donbas-Bilingual Ukrainian/Russian-Other civilians.

[ohio jones]

Sounds good. In the interest of sensitive, neutral terminology let's call them Ethnic Ukrainian-Ethnic Russian-Mixed ethnic Ukrainian & Russian-Ukrainian Citizan-Russian Citizan-Dual Ukrainian-Russian-Person from Donbas-Bilingual Ukrainian/Russian-Other civilians.

Or, as I suggested initially, simply "civilians."

[ken_sylvania]

Sounds good. In the interest of sensitive, neutral terminology let's call them Ethnic Ukrainian-Ethnic Russian-Mixed ethnic Ukrainian & Russian-Ukrainian Citizan-Russian Citizan-Dual Ukrainian-Russian-Person from Donbas-Bilingual Ukrainian/Russian-Other civilians.

Or, as I suggested initially, simply "civilians."

Why use a simple word when a complicated one will do?

[Josh]

I'm not some Russian advocate, or here to defend Russia's behaviour. I am simply here to make sure there is a balanced view on war: both sides are engaged in committing atrocities, and both ethnic Ukrainians (insofar as such a thing exists) and ethnic Russians have been victims of that.

Yes, let's be balanced. Russia should not invade Ukraine. Ukraine should not invade Russia.

But the war itself is not balanced. Ukraine did not invade Russia. They are not bombing Moscow and St Petersburg. They are not questioning Russia's right to exist, or whether Russians even exist at all. It's hard to know for sure, but so far, it sure looks like the war atrocities committed by Russia are on a very different scale than those committed by Ukraine. Russian civilians are not in a war zone, Ukranian civilians are, affecting just about every aspect of their lives and costing many, many lives.

And in a balanced view, Ukranians really do exist. No need to add "insofar as such a thing exists". Unless you are questioning all national and ethnic identities and boundaries - if you want to do that, the balanced approach is to add Russia (insofar as such a thing exists).

And ethnic Russians exist, including ones who live outside the Russian Federation.

[Josh]

Can you provide a single legitimate source for your assertion that ethnic Russian Ukrainian civilians have been deliberately targeted and have been under relentless assault at the hands of Ukraine for decades? No you cannot. That assertion is nothing more than manufactured Russian propaganda.

There are plenty of legitimate sources for this, published before 2022. It is not "Russian propaganda" and it is in fact quite disturbing that now you want to deny the atrocities conducted against ethnic Russians (who were nonetheless Ukrainian citizens), by other Ukrainian citizens who belong to extreme-far-right militias. I am frankly shocked that you would want to defend these groups.

In other words, no. He can't provide such a source. But he knows a lot of very strong adjectives.

I’ve provided sources before, and I’m not going to do your research for you.

[Bootstrap]

Sounds good. In the interest of sensitive, neutral terminology let's call them Ethnic Ukrainian-Ethnic Russian-Mixed ethnic Ukrainian & Russian-Ukrainian Citizan-Russian Citizan-Dual Ukrainian-Russian-Person from Donbas-Bilingual Ukrainian/Russian-Other civilians.

Or, as I suggested initially, simply "civilians."

Either one works for me. The first recognizes the complex identities that people have in the Donbas region, and points to polls that say pretty clearly that the majority want to stay in Ukraine. The second is simpler and takes all the emotional labels out of it. They are people. Killing people is bad.