Can Anabaptism be Catholic and vice versa?

[Sudsy]

In some cases, like this one, “turning the other cheek “ is permitting heresy to be communicated in our presence. Would you have preferred people like Conrad Grebel or Felix Manz to “turn the other cheek “ to avoid conflict? It is my sincere conviction that some of the people who come here do so to find people who are weak or uncertain to engage and lead off into error.

Therefore, error must be answered. Roman Catholicism is the chief error of our time.

I have no issue with stating what one believes to be truth in scripture but I also believe it can be done without taking personal shots at one another or another's beliefs. In other words, allow one's beliefs to be expressed and stand on their own and trust God to open the minds of the readers that need to think differently. This is an open forum where perceived heresies will be expressed and are allowed. For example, your last sentence above, would not invite me to read your posts any further, if I was an RC. Just saying I believe the old saying holds true that “you get more flies with honey than with vinegar”.

I think we need to point out the error, explain why it is an error and correct it. You can’t correct error without that. Ever read the accounts of our early history? Dr. Hubmaier particularly impresses me. This guy is here to discredit our faith…. His position is that we descended from people that were political rebels, refused to pay taxes and plagerized a monk that I had never heard of, and is nowhere in our literature. To let that stand unchallenged is irresponsible to those we have responsibility for.

Yes, I have read some early history of Anabaptism and how they went about resisting the government at that time. The setting was quite different than today as the state and church were one and the Anabaptists were a threat to civil order in the eyes of the main churches at that time. Their ways of standing for their beliefs resulted in thousands being drowned, beheaded or burned at the stake. We today live in a much different setting and persecution of Anabaptists with these penalties does not exist where we live. Our setting is very accommodating to Anabaptists and some of their ways.

From the little I know, and I am open to correction, if we tried to force certain beliefs today on our government, we, too, would receive some penalties for it but much less severe. We are not allowed to force anyone to believe and act the way we do in our society and so persuasion is our means to get others to buy into our beliefs. As scripture says 'come let us reason together saith the Lord' . We are not rebels but rather ambassadors representing another country.

I think we need to point out the error, explain why it is an error and correct it. You can’t correct error without that.

I agree with the first two of pointing out what we believe is error and giving an explanation why we think it is error, but it is up to the reader to agree they need to correct their understandings or not. I suppose in some church settings one must correct their errors or they will not be allowed as part of the church. But most Christian churches do not enforce beliefs in that way and take that approach.

As for challenging errors it is how we do it that I believe is very important. Col 4:6 -

Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer each one.

So, when we respond to challenges our choice of words is quite important and whether or not we are challenging the belief rather than the individual for having such belief.

Anyway, I appreciate your challenges to the way I'm looking at things. My main goal is to do what I can to promote a sharing of our differences here in a way that God would approve of. And we may not agree on that either but we can try to persuade others with that belief too.

[Falco Knotwise]

Many Catholic and nonCatholic forums have and do, allow dialog from different faiths as long as it is civil, avoids calling others liars, and proceeds to converse respectfully. Those that allow the printed equivalent of a street brawl have disappeared.

I agree with Sudsy’s assessment.

Just try it on a catholic forum. You will be booted the minute you challenge any catholic doctrine. You have your safe space where none can challenge you. I think you should be satisfied with that. I stay out of your “safe space” I ask that you not try to extend it.

Maybe peacemaker Sudsy should frequent those!

Where exactly is this safe space around here? Is there an actual safe space or is that forum lingo for “don’t broach certain topics?”

[Falco Knotwise]

I think we need to point out the error, explain why it is an error and correct it. You can’t correct error without that. Ever read the accounts of our early history? Dr. Hubmaier particularly impresses me. This guy is here to discredit our faith…. His position is that we descended from people that were political rebels, refused to pay taxes and plagerized a monk that I had never heard of, and is nowhere in our literature.

That’s not entirely true. Just some of you. I think most Mennonites are decent folks. I only hate the hatred of the haters amongst you. Your middle age hatred for the Catholic Church makes you blind.

Your mythological history continues and justifies hatred and spreads it everywhere. It sickens me,

So, that part of your faith I think is asinine and that part of it I do seek to discredit. Unfortunately, you beat me to it.

[Josh]

Your mythological history continues and justifies hatred and spreads it everywhere. It sickens me,

Can you be more clear on what "mythological history" you are speaking of? The history of Anabaptism is fairly well defined, and mostly by impartial observers who are not Anabaptists themselves.

So, that part of your faith I think is asinine and that part of it I do seek to discredit. Unfortunately, you beat me to it.

JM's perspective is one from growing up in a culturally and ethnically Catholic place. He has a very valuable perspective, even if I do not always share it. And part of that is that he is more than willing to say just how corrupt and spiritually bankrupt many parts of the Catholic heirarchy are, and dare I say, the associated doctrines.

I think he provides a valuable point of view, and at the end of the day, I'm glad I'm not forced to be Catholic and to submit to a corrupt heirarchy as my ancestors were required to, whether Catholic or Anglican.

[temporal1]

P.1:

Most Anabaptists groups, with a few notable exceptions, claim to be small "c" catholic, that is members of the universal church.
In that sense I am a catholic Mennonite.

That's why I was careful to define the term "Catholic" to mean "Roman Catholic Church" in my initial post, since I knew eventually someone would decide to muddy the waters by pointing out that "catholic" has an alternative meaning of "universal".

When almost anyone says "Catholic", they are referring to the RCC, not an adjective meaning universal.

^^Funny how that is, considering the use of the word, “catholic” in the Nicene Creed.

ST.NETWORK / The Anabaptist creed: The price of the Reform carried to the end
https://st.network/religion/the-anabapt ... e-end.html

.. The Anabaptists adhered unreservedly to the Apostolic Creed and the Nicene Creed.
They agreed with the Reformers on the doctrine of God, the divinity of Jesus Christ, the personality of the Holy Spirit, human depravity, being born again, and the literal return of the Lord Jesus. ..

USCCB / What We Believe
https://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teach ... we-believe

The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

[It might be interesting to critique the ST.NETWORK article in another topic.]

[Falco Knotwise]

Your mythological history continues and justifies hatred and spreads it everywhere. It sickens me,

Can you be more clear on what "mythological history" you are speaking of? The history of Anabaptism is not fairly well defined, and mostly by impartial observers who are not Anabaptists themselves.

So, that part of your faith I think is asinine and that part of it I do seek to discredit. Unfortunately, you beat me to it.

JM's perspective is one from growing up in a culturally and ethnically Catholic place. He has a very valuable perspective, even if I do not always share it. And part of that is that he is more than willing to say just how corrupt and spiritually bankrupt many parts of the Catholic heirarchy are, and dare I say, the associated doctrines.

I think he provides a valuable point of view, and at the end of the day, I'm glad I'm not forced to be Catholic and to submit to a corrupt heirarchy as my ancestors were required to, whether Catholic or Anglican.

I think I’ve made my view of anabaptist historical mythology clear already, in fact, I think JM described it fairly well.

Btw, you’re no more happy than I am about the separation of the Catholic Church from state power. Thank God for that!

As for JM, it’s nice you think he’s so sweet but other here have called him out on his hateful attitude towards me and he scoffs at them.

You think I’m going to kiss his bass for you?

[Josh]

I think I’ve made my view of anabaptist historical mythology clear already, in fact, I think JM described it fairly well.

There's nothing "mythological" about it. It's established history.

What parts do you assert are myths?

[Falco Knotwise]

I think I’ve made my view of anabaptist historical mythology clear already, in fact, I think JM described it fairly well.

There's nothing "mythological" about it. It's established history.

What parts do you assert are myths?

The parts I already said before. If and when I’m ready with more you’ll get it, and not a moment sooner.

I’ve said enough to let people go search for themselves which was main objective. Naturally, what I said is gonna hurt some feelings around here. Too bad.

[Josh]

I think I’ve made my view of anabaptist historical mythology clear already, in fact, I think JM described it fairly well.

There's nothing "mythological" about it. It's established history.

What parts do you assert are myths?

The parts I already said before.

OK, so, I've gained my knowledge of Anabaptist history mostly from impartial historians. Are you asserting that these various historians are somehow engaged in promoting some kind of false history or some kind of myth? Or that they are misguded?

What scholars would you point to to tell what the real history is?

[Falco Knotwise]

Honestly, I think my beef with Anabaptism is my own personal affair. I don’t think Eric Voegelin or anyone else expressed such a hateful attitude as I have towards its medieval dogmatic hatreds.

As for its birth as a movement being inspired by egalitarian dreams of communal life based on monasteries, & inspired by the apocalyptic prophecies of Joachim of Fiore, there’s lots of scholarly work on that. Did you check out that link I left before? Lots of real live scholarly references there.