Bunny Trails

[Ken]

I find the income ceiling for social security tax rather regressive, taxing all income below the cutoff and none above it. In effect lower middle class people are taxed on all their income while top earners are only taxed on the first 150,000$. Why not tax every one on the same percentage of their income.

I agree if you treat social security taxes and social security benefits as unlinked.

The argument for the tax cutoff is that people earning more than that don't get any higher social security benefit for the extra taxes. In other words, someone earning $160,000/year and someone earning $500,000/yr or $1 million/year are all only going to get the same maximum social security benefit.

But in reality, your social security benefit and taxes are only loosely linked. If you work your whole life and die at age 65 just months before retirement then you will get not a dime for all that work. Or if you die at age 67 you only get 1 year of social security compared to your neighbor who lives until 97 and gets 31 years of inflation-indexed benefits.

So yes, I'd favor raising the cap or even dropping it completely. The super rich don't get most of their income as wages anyway. So it isn't like Elon Musk is going to pay 6.2% on his entire wealth. He might not even draw an actual salary and might not actually pay any social security tax.

Raising the tax limit is mostly going to hit highly paid professionals like tech engineers, doctors and lawyers and mid-level managers and executives.

[Ken]

Many, if not most, of the plainest practicing Anabaptists, are exempt from paying SS tax. And they then can’t collect it either.
So it’s another one of those things that doesn’t directly affect them. Sort of like public schools.

Does anyone know what percentage of the larger Anabaptist world exempts itself from social security? Any guesses?

I would expect most of the Amish although there are probably some Amish that do take Social Security, especially if they work for outside employers. And just don't really talk about it.

Beyond the Amish I don't have a good sense of how many we are talking about.

[Grace]

Many, if not most, of the plainest practicing Anabaptists, are exempt from paying SS tax. And they then can’t collect it either.
So it’s another one of those things that doesn’t directly affect them. Sort of like public schools.

Does anyone know what percentage of the larger Anabaptist world exempts itself from social security? Any guesses?

I would expect most of the Amish although there are probably some Amish that do take Social Security, especially if they work for outside employers. And just don't really talk about it.

Beyond the Amish I don't have a good sense of how many we are talking about.

LOL! Are you actually admitting you don’t have knowledge about something. And no graph or photo to post.

[Josh]

Here’s an even better idea: stop stealing people’s money and let them keep that 15% for themselves to save, invest, or use however they see fit.

[Ken]

I didn't realize that Ken considers himself Anabaptist.

Posts have been moved pending examination of credentials.

It is a silly question: "What suggestions can Anabaptists provide to address this situation?"

Because the correct answer is none.

There are no suggestions that that Anabaptists can provide to address the fact that the Social Security program will reach deficit status in about 10 years because it is not a religious question. It is a political question. Just like there is nothing specifically that Baptists or Catholics can suggest either. It is like asking what suggestions can Anabaptists provide to address the Electoral College or Interstate Commerce Clause.

And this isn't even a current events topic. It is a politics topic. The last time that Congress tinkered with Social Security was back in the Reagan Administration. And there is nothing in particular that makes it a current event in 2023 except that politicians are talking about it for political reasons. Which again makes it a political topic. In point of fact, there is nothing that Congress or anyone else needs to do in 2023, or ever actually. They can just do nothing and let the program run a deficit. Or they can tinker with it at any other point down the road.

If you want to ask a different question. Namely, whether Anabaptists should participate in Social Security. That would be a religious question. Or at least a question that can be answered on religious grounds. And that would be a subject for the Anabaptist Theology and Practice forum.

As to the side question about my own religious leanings? I grew up in an Anabaptist church and attended (and was a member of) Anabaptist churches for many years. And I still hold to many of the tenants of that denomination. But like many others on this forum, MacPC included, my wife and I don't currently attend an Anabaptist congregation. We attend one in a different denomination.

So if you want to be a stickler about things. Actuarial questions about the solvency of the Social Security program should be in the politics forum because they aren't about current events or religion. And religious questions about participation in the Social Security program should be in the religion forums, because they aren't about current events either.

[Ken]

Posts have been moved pending examination of credentials.

It is a silly question: "What suggestions can Anabaptists provide to address this situation?"

Because the correct answer is none.

There are no suggestions that that Anabaptists can provide to address the fact that the Social Security program will reach deficit status in about 10 years because it is not a religious question. It is a political question. Just like there is nothing specifically that Baptists or Catholics can suggest either. It is like asking what suggestions can Anabaptists provide to address the Electoral College or Interstate Commerce Clause.

And this isn't even a current events topic. It is a politics topic. The last time that Congress tinkered with Social Security was back in the Reagan Administration. And there is nothing in particular that makes it a current event in 2023 except that politicians are talking about it for political reasons. Which again makes it a political topic. In point of fact, there is nothing that Congress or anyone else needs to do in 2023, or ever actually. They can just do nothing and let the program run a deficit. Or they can tinker with it at any other point down the road.

If you want to ask a different question. Namely, whether Anabaptists should participate in Social Security. That would be a religious question. Or at least a question that can be answered on religious grounds. And that would be a subject for the Anabaptist Theology and Practice forum.

As to the side question about my own religious leanings? I grew up in an Anabaptist church and attended (and was a member of) Anabaptist churches for many years. And I still hold to many of the tenants of that denomination. But like many others on this forum, MacPC included, my wife and I don't currently attend an Anabaptist congregation. We attend one in a different denomination.

So if you want to be a stickler about things. Actuarial questions about the solvency of the Social Security program should be in the politics forum because they aren't about current events or religion. And religious questions about participation in the Social Security program should be in the religion forums, because they aren't about current events either.

Whether they should have responded when asked for input or not is a different question, but some Mennonite men in the colonies were invited to make suggestions to the government of the Russian Empire, sometimes directly to the Czars, of whom some visited in Mennonite homes in the colonies as well. Local politicians here in Holmes County also seek the advice of leaders in the Amish community. (And didn't some Amish men meet with former President D. Trump?)

But I guess I took the question as referring to how "anabaptists" should respond in general to this situation. Perhaps financial advice offered to those who are registered with the SS system as to how they should prepare for this possibility, and then also even forming a plan to assist non-Mennonite people in our communities who may experience severe financial needs as a result of these changes, should any of this actually happen. That, at least, is not political. It is, rather, what the Church is about.

But again, to put it in Anabaptist terms, the Social Security program and questions about its solvency clearly fall within the Kingdom of the World, not the Kingdom of Christ. In other words, there is no Anabaptist doctrine relevant to addressing the solvency of Social Security. It is outside the scope of Anabaptist theology. Menno Simons did not concern himself with issues related to the revenues or solvency of the Hapsbsurg Empire that controlled the Kingdom or principality of Friesland where he lived. Some other faiths might be much more eager and willing to get entangled in politics or the affairs of the world. But that isn't generally part of Anabaptist tradition.

There are, of course, many very important broader questions about how we take care of our elderly and infirm. And those can be Biblical questions and important subjects for Anabaptist communities to address. But those are different questions from the question asked here about the future solvency of a specific government program.

[Josh]

One of the odder affectations of modern life is the belief that cameras somehow stop crime.

[appleman2006]

Without having read nearly all 750 pages it suddenly struck me that this thread could be used by historians to research the ebb and flow of people’s responses and feelings throughout the many varied stages of the pandemic.

[Ken]

One of the odder affectations of modern life is the belief that cameras somehow stop crime.

What is odd about it?

You do realize this is a subject that has been intensely studied by both academic criminologists and big companies deciding whether to invest in CCTV and looking to reduce theft. So it isn't a question of belief, it is a question about what the data actually show.

[Ken]

One of the odder affectations of modern life is the belief that cameras somehow stop crime.

Do you think schools and school buses should have security cameras?

Or is that all a giant waste of money that could be better spent on things like science equipment and smaller class sizes?