Fraud Throughout Driving Schools

[Valerie]

What’s worse than a useful idiot? A useless idiot.
If we are going to be idiots, we might as well be useful.

I don’t appreciate Boots name calling the last couple days.

I don't think this is name calling, I'm describing s specific phenomenon. There's a political move to own a news cycle, there are people trying to polarize around emotional words, branding immigrants as toxic, a threat to everyone, using disease metaphors, implying that they are all murderers and rapists ... and that kind of bypasses the logical process.

Beyond that, projecting motives onto anyone who disagrees with you, or implying that people who disagree with you have no idea what Fox News is saying or what Trump is putting out on Truth Social or what White House press releases say.

Here's an example:

Boot it would behoove you to listen to the Angel families that have lost loved ones or terribly permanently disabled from the drivers & other “murders & rapists”who are begging people to quit caring more about the legal immigrants then they do those who have been hurt, killed, raped or harmed-
I guess they’d be surprised Christians seem to care more about bout them than legal citizens. I’ve heard the Angel families speak several times. Hear their cry!

Nobody is saying that at all. But some of us are saying that all human beings should be treated like human beings. And when the people who drive our news cycle and social media feeds try to make us feel "murderers and rapists" every time we hear the word "immigrant", I think we should think seriously about how this played out with other groups in American history.

Why support the rich and powerful in their campaign to target the vulnerable? Why target specific people BY NAME in online forums when they have been convicted of nothing? Is that REALLY the way Christians should behave?

We did not have the same problems in American history that we do now boot. I would think you would realize this. We did not have terrorist that want to get into our country. We did not have horrific drug flow like we have experienced and you know that I am sure. There are numerous problems that are unique today that early immigrants did not bring with them even still there was a legal process in place for a reason and that’s what the American people voted for people to abide by the law. Is that too much to ask? Apparently it is

[Bootstrap]

We did not have the same problems in American history that we do now boot. I would think you would realize this. We did not have terrorist that want to get into our country. We did not have horrific drug flow like we have experienced and you know that I am sure. There are numerous problems that are unique today that early immigrants did not bring with them even still there was a legal process in place for a reason and that’s what the American people voted for people to abide by the law. Is that too much to ask? Apparently it is

But that’s not really the point I’m making. We can care deeply about the families of people who have been murdered or harmed without treating immigrants in general as though “murderers and rapists” describes them.

And I also want us to imagine what it is like on the other side—to be an immigrant who has committed no violent crime, but hears people like you described as murderers and rapists; or to have your name and picture spread by the government or on social media, with thousands of strangers assuming the worst about you before you have ever been convicted of anything.

Those people have families too. They are frightened too. Their lives can be devastated too. I want us to be able to hear both cries.

[Valerie]

We did not have the same problems in American history that we do now boot. I would think you would realize this. We did not have terrorist that want to get into our country. We did not have horrific drug flow like we have experienced and you know that I am sure. There are numerous problems that are unique today that early immigrants did not bring with them even still there was a legal process in place for a reason and that’s what the American people voted for people to abide by the law. Is that too much to ask? Apparently it is

But that’s not really the point I’m making. We can care deeply about the families of people who have been murdered or harmed without treating immigrants in general as though “murderers and rapists” describes them.

And I also want us to imagine what it is like on the other side—to be an immigrant who has committed no violent crime, but hears people like you described as murderers and rapists; or to have your name and picture spread by the government or on social media, with thousands of strangers assuming the worst about you before you have ever been convicted of anything.

Those people have families too. They are frightened too. Their lives can be devastated too. I want us to be able to hear both cries.

But that’s why we have a system in place so we know who is entering the country. It just seems so obvious, I guess it was to most Americans. It’s tiring to keep defending a legal system put in place for good reasons without feeling like we don’t care about people. That’s just not the case. At all.

[Bootstrap]

We did not have the same problems in American history that we do now boot. I would think you would realize this. We did not have terrorist that want to get into our country. We did not have horrific drug flow like we have experienced and you know that I am sure. There are numerous problems that are unique today that early immigrants did not bring with them even still there was a legal process in place for a reason and that’s what the American people voted for people to abide by the law. Is that too much to ask? Apparently it is

But that’s not really the point I’m making. We can care deeply about the families of people who have been murdered or harmed without treating immigrants in general as though “murderers and rapists” describes them.

And I also want us to imagine what it is like on the other side—to be an immigrant who has committed no violent crime, but hears people like you described as murderers and rapists; or to have your name and picture spread by the government or on social media, with thousands of strangers assuming the worst about you before you have ever been convicted of anything.

Those people have families too. They are frightened too. Their lives can be devastated too. I want us to be able to hear both cries.

But that’s why we have a system in place so we know who is entering the country. It just seems so obvious, I guess it was to most Americans. It’s tiring to keep defending a legal system put in place for good reasons without feeling like we don’t care about people. That’s just not the case. At all.

Well no, that's precisely what we are not doing. We are not creating a clearly defined, orderly, legal way to handle immigration. And both immigrants and the government are doing things that are illegal here. This is where we need legislation and people sitting together to figure out how our immigration system SHOULD work. It has been a VERY long time since that happened.

without feeling like we don’t care about people. That’s just not the case. At all.

Then I assume we both care a LOT about how these people are treated. For instance, whether people who have never been convicted of a crime are harassed online, with their names going viral. Whether parents and children are separated. What conditions are like in the prison camps. That kind of thing.

Caring expresses itself in words of compassion. And offers to help. And being considerate in the way we talk about people who are in very difficult circumstances.

[Valerie]

But that’s not really the point I’m making. We can care deeply about the families of people who have been murdered or harmed without treating immigrants in general as though “murderers and rapists” describes them.

And I also want us to imagine what it is like on the other side—to be an immigrant who has committed no violent crime, but hears people like you described as murderers and rapists; or to have your name and picture spread by the government or on social media, with thousands of strangers assuming the worst about you before you have ever been convicted of anything.

Those people have families too. They are frightened too. Their lives can be devastated too. I want us to be able to hear both cries.

But that’s why we have a system in place so we know who is entering the country. It just seems so obvious, I guess it was to most Americans. It’s tiring to keep defending a legal system put in place for good reasons without feeling like we don’t care about people. That’s just not the case. At all.

Well no, that's precisely what we are not doing. We are not creating a clearly defined, orderly, legal way to handle immigration. And both immigrants and the government are doing things that are illegal here. This is where we need legislation and people sitting together to figure out how our immigration system SHOULD work. It has been a VERY long time since that happened.

without feeling like we don’t care about people. That’s just not the case. At all.

Then I assume we both care a LOT about how these people are treated. For instance, whether people who have never been convicted of a crime are harassed online, with their names going viral. Whether parents and children are separated. What conditions are like in the prison camps. That kind of thing.

Caring expresses itself in words of compassion. And offers to help. And being considerate in the way we talk about people who are in very difficult circumstances.

Well I never advocated for mistreatment of people. But thanks to the president that I did not vote for, millions of people entered our country illegally many who were let out of prisons in other countries for us to take- we have drug trafficking, sex trafficking, and all kinds of other things that our law enforcement is up against every single day. They did not create this problem. The previous administration did so blame the right people!!

[JohnH]

Well no, that's precisely what we are not doing. We are not creating a clearly defined, orderly, legal way to handle immigration.

We have, however, made a clearly defined, orderly, and legal way to obtain a commercial drivers' licence. For whatever reasons, some drivers are choosing not to follow that established, well defined path, nor comply with the applicable laws and regulations.

Why can't we just talk about the topic at hand? Are you opposed to orderly regulation of truck driving?

Nobody is saying that at all. But some of us are saying that all human beings should be treated like human beings.

Yes, and that includes immigrants and undocumented immigrants being subject to the same laws and regulations around commercial driving as anyone else.

That does mean that undocumented immigrants have exactly zero pathways to obtain a commercial driver licence, so undocumented immigrants cannot enter the truck driving profession. That is part of what it means to have clearly defined, orderly, and legal ways to handle immigration. Someone who is an illegal alien/undocumented immigrant will have to take steps to change that first.

For legal immigrants (and citizens, and permanent residents, and so forth), they also need to follow the applicable laws and regulations. But there is a great deal of evidence that hasn't happened, and part of the evidence is that commercial drivers end up in accidents and then it is extensively documented (often with police bodycam footage) that they are unable to speak or comprehend English. The simple fact is that any commercial driver who can't speak and understand English is breaking the law and not following applicable regulations regarding commercial driver licences; and if such a person holds a commercial driver licence, they have cheated at some point along the way. That has nothing at all to do with immigration status, although obviously it's more likely for recent immigrants to have no English ability versus American citizens, most of whom can understand English well enough to pass the CDL test.

Many immigrants come from places where bribery, fraud, and dishonesty are the norm in obtaining things like a driver licence, and may not be aware that what they are doing is well outside the norm for America. However, I think the onus is on immigrants to figure out how to respect America's laws and not engage in bribery, fraud, and corruption.

[ken_sylvania]

Unlicensed driving schools should be shut down. And licensed ones should be monitored. This is, of course, called "regulation", something the government has done less and less of recently, especially in areas where fraud is rampant. I think this should also be extended to tax fraud, stock fraud, cryptocurrency fraud and money laundering, and other areas of fraud.

Yes, some people think that the answer to everything is regulations and more regulations.

Why should Church-sponsored drivers ed classes be shut down? They are, by definition, unlicensed private driver education or training schools.

You really want to shut me down because I train my truck drivers how to operate the trucks and trailers that they are expected to drive? When I train a driver how to operate a trailer, that educational session is a private driver education or training school.

I think these types of training can actually improve safety, and I absolutely object to the idea that they all ought to be brought under the thumb of the state.

[Valerie]

Unlicensed driving schools should be shut down. And licensed ones should be monitored. This is, of course, called "regulation", something the government has done less and less of recently, especially in areas where fraud is rampant. I think this should also be extended to tax fraud, stock fraud, cryptocurrency fraud and money laundering, and other areas of fraud.

Yes, some people think that the answer to everything is regulations and more regulations.

Why should Church-sponsored drivers ed classes be shut down? They are, by definition, unlicensed private driver education or training schools.

You really want to shut me down because I train my truck drivers how to operate the trucks and trailers that they are expected to drive? When I train a driver how to operate a trailer, that educational session is a private driver education or training school.

I think these types of training can actually improve safety, and I absolutely object to the idea that they all ought to be brought under the thumb of the state.

The ones that were shut down were disobeying the law which as Christians we are to follow. It’s for safety reasons!

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God

[JohnH]

Unlicensed driving schools should be shut down. And licensed ones should be monitored. This is, of course, called "regulation", something the government has done less and less of recently, especially in areas where fraud is rampant. I think this should also be extended to tax fraud, stock fraud, cryptocurrency fraud and money laundering, and other areas of fraud.

Yes, some people think that the answer to everything is regulations and more regulations.

Why should Church-sponsored drivers ed classes be shut down? They are, by definition, unlicensed private driver education or training schools.

You really want to shut me down because I train my truck drivers how to operate the trucks and trailers that they are expected to drive? When I train a driver how to operate a trailer, that educational session is a private driver education or training school.

I think these types of training can actually improve safety, and I absolutely object to the idea that they all ought to be brought under the thumb of the state.

I found the phrase "Unlicensed driving schools should be shut down" to be an interesting claim, as is "licensed ones should be monitored", because licensed driving schools are already monitored.

The actual fraud / corruption problems appear to be at certain BMVs in certain states, where bribery and corruption simply meant someone was given a CDL with no driving school whatsoever. Likewise, there were (and are) fraudulent driving schools which were "licenced" yet would state that a student passed a course when in reality he had not.

This is, of course, "regulation", something the government has done more and more of recently. When regulation doesn't work, the answer of some people is "let's have more regulation".

I have a better idea: when someone holding a CDL obviously has committed fraud to obtain it - like being unable to speak English - the truck should immediately be impounded and taken out of service. The laws already exist to do this. However, I suspect that some people on this forum would consider that some kind of violation of human rights, or the Old Testament, not being welcoming to the stranger, and so forth. Hence why it has not been done.

[ken_sylvania]

Unlicensed driving schools should be shut down. And licensed ones should be monitored. This is, of course, called "regulation", something the government has done less and less of recently, especially in areas where fraud is rampant. I think this should also be extended to tax fraud, stock fraud, cryptocurrency fraud and money laundering, and other areas of fraud.

Yes, some people think that the answer to everything is regulations and more regulations.

Why should Church-sponsored drivers ed classes be shut down? They are, by definition, unlicensed private driver education or training schools.

You really want to shut me down because I train my truck drivers how to operate the trucks and trailers that they are expected to drive? When I train a driver how to operate a trailer, that educational session is a private driver education or training school.

I think these types of training can actually improve safety, and I absolutely object to the idea that they all ought to be brought under the thumb of the state.

The ones that were shut down were disobeying the law which as Christians we are to follow. It’s for safety reasons!

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God

I think you misunderstand me. I do not object to "illegal" schools being shut down. I am not suggesting that Christians need not follow the law.

I was objecting to Bootstrap's opinion that the state should require all driving schools to be licensed and then shut down those that are not licensed.

Currently the law allows churches to do things like drivers ed courses, and employers to provide training, without being licensed as a school. I think this is a good thing and should continue.