Romans 13 and Revelation 13

[ohio jones]

2. The New Testament is written in a code that only those that study it can truly understand.

Only those who have the Holy Spirit can truly understand the Scriptures. Someone without the Holy Spirit can study it extensively without grasping its meaning.

We thought not using 501(c)3 could impact our tax free property status and make us liable for paying back taxes. We found that this very old church property had never been listed on the tax rolls, and so no property taxes would ever be due. The church building had been established at a time when the United State government understood churches could not be taxed, as the power to tax is the power to destroy.

Real estate taxes are a state and local concern. IRS 501(c)3 status is a federal law and relates to income, not real estate. Two completely separate issues.

[JohnHurt]

As I detailed above, the U.S. government still doesn't tax churches. A long time ago, though, it did tax the citizens in order to pay for churches to operate.

I understand that you cannot write off your donations to the church against your taxable income if the church is not a 501(c)3. I never write my donations off to anyone, they are in secret. Matt 6:4

My church has spoken out against all of these things and has a formal 501(c)3 recognition.

Yes, you can speak all you want to say inside your church building, but not outside.

Having 501(c)3 your church won't be able to publicly support a political candidate or openly support legislation prohibiting unchristian activities.

Sin is defined by the law of a society.
Whoever makes the laws of the society determines what is sin and the appropriate punishments for sin.

Whoever makes the laws of the society is the "god" or elohim of the society.
This is why governments lend themselves to "serving other gods". 1 Samuel 8:7-8.
They have created another legal system.
King Alfred the Great created the English Common Law from the laws in the Pentateuch. This is how it should be, even now.

501(c)3 was established in 1954 in legislation proposed by then-Senator Johnson who sought to prohibit 501(c)3 exempt organisations from engaging in political campaigns.

Lyndon Johnson was corrupt and was being blasted by the ministers of many churches about his moral character. So he got the 501(c)3 passed to stop his humiliation.

For a very good reason, the 501(c)3 tax laws were never needed at any time before 1954 in our history. It is an innovation.
There is a book called "In Caesar's Grip" by Peter Kershaw that explains the history of 501(c)3.

There were many religions in Rome in the 1st Century, like Mithras and Isis, and they were not persecuted.

But the Christians were persecuted because they would not take the license of Caesar. They were an "unregulated" religion and resisted the State. Taking the license meant putting the Roman State in a superior position to the Church, and they would not do it. This went on until Constantine realized he could only control Christianity by making it into a State religion.

Great points, even if we don't agree.
John

[JohnHurt]

Can we focus on what the passage itself can reasonably be understood to mean, using the text of the passage? That often helps clear things up.

That is a great idea.

(1) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Is this saying that the power Nero Caesar has is ordained of God?
If Nero Caesar's power was "ordained by God", then was his power ordained as a curse to test us, or a blessing?
Is being killed by Nero something God wills and wants the Christian to endure as a test of faith?
Or is Nero and Diocletian's persecution of Christians from Satan, and not God, as in Luke 4:5-6? Frankly, I believe Christ's 2nd temptation in Luke 4 has more validity than Romans 13, just from a historical basis.

(2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
This appears to say that if you don't do what Nero says, you will be condemned by God.
From history, we know that if Nero finds you practicing Christianity, Nero will have you eaten by lions in the Roman Coliseum or nailed to a cross and lit on fire to illuminate Nero's garden.
So, if I don't practice Christianity and obey Nero to not follow the Christian religion, I won't be killed and I won't be condemned by God? That is impossible.

I don't understand how the power of Nero's laws are on the same level as the ordinances of God's Laws. Or that God would ever condemn you for resisting Nero. Your ideas are welcome.

(3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
You will need to define the difference between "good" and "evil" from Nero's perspective, and make that align somehow with the definition of "good" and "evil" in the Bible.

(4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Yes, please define "evil" and "good" as relates to Nero vs. the Bible.

Nero's biblical authority to execute wrath upon him that doeth "evil" is tied to the biblical definition of "evil." Perhaps only in the areas where Nero actually does "good" and "evil" according to the Bible definition is where Romans 13 applies.

(5) Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
What do you do when Nero ask you to sin against the Law of God? Who wins? To who ultimately must you be "subject" to in your activities if they don't agree? This is an impossible statement.
And why should my conscience be "subject" to the ungodly like Nero? No. I am not giving that up.

(6) For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
(7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Yes, Nero wants you to always pay your taxes, even if the money is used for orgies, gladiators, and lining the Appian Way with people dying on crosses.

And don't forget the Roman Slave population, as your tax money is needed by Nero for buying new whips and chains.

The Mennonite debate about not paying the "war tax" is a good example of not paying taxes to an ungodly government, and contradicts Romans 13:6-7.


Romans 13 cannot possibly mean that we are to subject the Christian Church to man and put it to an inferior and subservient position to someone like Nero Caesar.

There are only three logical outcomes:
(a) Romans 13 doesn't apply to Nero as he does not meet the qualifications listed in Romans 13.
(b) Romans 13 is not talking about the government of men.
(c) Paul's opinion in Romans 13 is incorrect, just like his opinion of not helping the 59 year old widow in 1 Timothy 5:9 is also incorrect. Because Paul is fallible, Romans 13 is only Paul's opinion and is not binding on Christians.

But if you can use the text of this passage, line by line, and make Romans 13 fit Nero Caesar, I am very interested in your ideas.
Thanks,
John

[JohnHurt]

2. The New Testament is written in a code that only those that study it can truly understand.

Only those who have the Holy Spirit can truly understand the Scriptures. Someone without the Holy Spirit can study it extensively without grasping its meaning.

We thought not using 501(c)3 could impact our tax free property status and make us liable for paying back taxes. We found that this very old church property had never been listed on the tax rolls, and so no property taxes would ever be due. The church building had been established at a time when the United State government understood churches could not be taxed, as the power to tax is the power to destroy.

Real estate taxes are a state and local concern. IRS 501(c)3 status is a federal law and relates to income, not real estate. Two completely separate issues.

Great points, you are correct.

[JohnH]

As I detailed above, the U.S. government still doesn't tax churches. A long time ago, though, it did tax the citizens in order to pay for churches to operate.

I understand that you cannot write off your donations to the church against your taxable income if the church is not a 501(c)3. I never write my donations off to anyone, they are in secret. Matt 6:4

Incorrect. You can deduct donations to any church regardless of formal 501(c)3 status.

My church has spoken out against all of these things and has a formal 501(c)3 recognition.

Yes, you can speak all you want to say inside your church building, but not outside.

Having 501(c)3 your church won't be able to publicly support a political candidate or openly support legislation prohibiting unchristian activities.

Yes, churches in America aren’t allowed to conduct political campaigns. They are allowed to speak against candidates and against legislation though.

Sin is defined by the law of a society.
Whoever makes the laws of the society determines what is sin and the appropriate punishments for sin.

Whoever makes the laws of the society is the "god" or elohim of the society.
This is why governments lend themselves to "serving other gods". 1 Samuel 8:7-8.
They have created another legal system.
King Alfred the Great created the English Common Law from the laws in the Pentateuch. This is how it should be, even now.

501(c)3 was established in 1954 in legislation proposed by then-Senator Johnson who sought to prohibit 501(c)3 exempt organisations from engaging in political campaigns.

Lyndon Johnson was corrupt and was being blasted by the ministers of many churches about his moral character. So he got the 501(c)3 passed to stop his humiliation.

For a very good reason, the 501(c)3 tax laws were never needed at any time before 1954 in our history. It is an innovation.
There is a book called "In Caesar's Grip" by Peter Kershaw that explains the history of 501(c)3.

There were many religions in Rome in the 1st Century, like Mithras and Isis, and they were not persecuted.

But the Christians were persecuted because they would not take the license of Caesar. They were an "unregulated" religion and resisted the State. Taking the license meant putting the Roman State in a superior position to the Church, and they would not do it. This went on until Constantine realized he could only control Christianity by making it into a State religion.

Great points, even if we don't agree.
John

It’s not a matter of “agreement”. Your claims about tax law are false.

[R7ehr]

As I detailed above, the U.S. government still doesn't tax churches. A long time ago, though, it did tax the citizens in order to pay for churches to operate.

I understand that you cannot write off your donations to the church against your taxable income if the church is not a 501(c)3. I never write my donations off to anyone, they are in secret. Matt 6:4

This is not correct, church donations can legally be written off (at least at the Federal level) even if the church is not registered as a 501c3.

I suspect that for most people, there is probably no tax savings at all in their case for tracking their donations. Because the standard deduction is large enough for them, that itemizing and writing off their donations doesn’t save them anything additional in taxes.

[barnhart]

There are only three logical outcomes:
(a) Romans 13 doesn't apply to Nero as he does not meet the qualifications listed in Romans 13.
(b) Romans 13 is not talking about the government of men.
(c) Paul's opinion in Romans 13 is incorrect, just like his opinion of not helping the 59 year old widow in 1 Timothy 5:9 is also incorrect. Because Paul is fallible, Romans 13 is only Paul's opinion and is not binding on Christians.

(d) Romans 13 describes how God works through government as he did with ancient kings to accomplish his greater purposes. It describes how the authority they hold descends from God but does not supercede his authority. Therefore his sheep will not challenge their right to rule even when they cannot obey everything they ask.

[JohnHurt]

This is not correct, church donations can legally be written off (at least at the Federal level) even if the church is not registered as a 501c3.

That is correct, but...

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profi ... f-churches

Churches (including integrated auxiliaries and conventions or associations of churches) that meet the requirements of section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of exempt status from the IRS. Donors are allowed to claim a charitable deduction for donations to a church that meets the section 501(c)(3) requirements even though the church has neither sought nor received IRS recognition that it is tax exempt. In addition, because churches and certain other religious organizations are not required to file an annual return or notice with the IRS, they are not subject to automatic revocation of exemption for failure to file. See Annual Return Filing Exceptions for a complete list of organizations that are not required to file.

Nevertheless, many churches do seek IRS recognition of tax-exempt status because that recognition provides reliance to church leaders, members and contributors that a church is recognized as exempt from taxation and is eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions. (For more information, see Publication 1828, Tax Guide for Churches and Religious Organizations.)

Some organizations that identify themselves as churches may appear on the Automatic Revocation of Exemption List (Auto-Revocation List) because IRS records do not identify them as churches, but rather as some other type of organization that has an annual filing requirement. Because these organizations failed to file annual returns or notices for three consecutive years, they appear on the Auto-Revocation List. Donors to these organizations may no longer rely on an IRS determination letter dated before the effective date of revocation or a prior listing in Tax Exempt Organization Search (Pub. 78 database) or in the IRS Business Master File (BMF) extract for purposes of claiming tax-deductible contributions. However, if an organization on the Auto-Revocation List is a church that meets the requirements of section 501(c)(3), it remains exempt from taxation and eligible to receive tax-deductible charitable contributions even though the IRS no longer recognizes the exempt status of the organization in Tax Exempt Organization Search (Pub. 78 database), in the BMF extract or in a determination letter.

So if you walk like a 501(c)3 and act like a 501(c)3, then you are a 501(c)3, and you don't have to file your 501(c)3 license, which means your members can still claim their donations as deductions even though you never filed.

But you have to behave like a church under 501(c)3 to get this protection, which accomplishes the purpose of the legislation, even if you don't file for 501(c)3. Otherwise you will be on the "Auto Revocation List."

If you are what the IRS says are one of the "organizations that identify themselves as a church", but the "IRS records do not identify them as churches", what would cause that? A good reason is that your church did not follow the rules set by the government, such as...

https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/charities- ... d-politics

Currently, the law prohibits political campaign activity by charities and churches by defining a 501(c)(3) organization as one "which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

John the Baptist would have lost his tax deduction for speaking out against Herod. Matthew 14:4 I don't think John the Baptist was wrong.

And no church speaks out about our politicians today, like how Lyndon Johnson was corrupt and burned down a courthouse to win an election. Your church cannot say anything about that or any other crooked politician, as the government has set firm limits on what a church can and cannot do. The superior rules the inferior.

This is really another topic and needs another thread.

The point is that Romans 13 and the 501(c)3 tax code puts Christianity in an inferior position to government. This all goes back to a misunderstanding of Romans 13.

Jesus declared that the governments of men are inferior to God's Kingdom and exists because God allows them to exist. John 19:11

Christ said that the power of man's government comes from God, but for most governments, it was delivered by God to Satan, and Satan gives this power "to whomsoever he wills, he will give it." Luke 4:6

You would be hard pressed to find any government of man that met the qualifications of Romans 13, as almost all are ruled by Satan.

[JohnH]

JohnHurt, let's go over this a bit.

Currently, the law prohibits political campaign activity by charities and churches by defining a 501(c)(3) organization as one "which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."

Churches are not political campaigns and political campaigns are not churches.

A church as a whole can speak out against elected officials all it wants; it just can't engage in a political campaign. And individuals in the church can also campaign for or against any candidate for office.

Churches can also speak out for and against issues (i.e. things other than a person specifically running for office). For example, a church can speak that "We don't think anyone should vote for someone who thinks abortion should be legal." The church just can't say "We don't think anyone should vote for Joe Bloggs." They can, however, distribute voter guides (and many do) with their positions on various issues, and then a list of positions candidates have taken.

In short churches have very wide latitude to influence political campaigns. I do not understand why you are torqued up that churches can't directly campaign for a candidate running for office. This doesn't seem like "church" to me.

[ohio jones]

If you are what the IRS says are one of the "organizations that identify themselves as a church", but the "IRS records do not identify them as churches", what would cause that? A good reason is that your church did not follow the rules set by the government, such as...

What would happen in practice is that a taxpayer undergoing an IRS audit might have their contributions examined if they itemized deductions. The names of the organizations they contributed to would be fed into the exempt organization database. If there's a church that's not in the database, the IRS could then ask if it's a legitimate church in order to allow or disallow the deduction. The depth of that research would probably depend on the amount of the deduction. I would expect a $500 contribution to Generic Mennonite Church to be handled much differently than a $500,000 contribution to Generic Prosperity Ministries. And in neither case would I expect the investigation to look at political speech unless there's an obvious blatant disregard for the boundaries.

But you have to behave like a church under 501(c)3 to get this protection, which accomplishes the purpose of the legislation, even if you don't file for 501(c)3. Otherwise you will be on the "Auto Revocation List."

What might cause a church to appear on the Auto-Revocation List, if you read the part you quoted carefully and without an ax grinder, is a church that has a non-church function associated with it under the same organization. For example, a church that has a nonprofit thrift store as a ministry to the community or to support the church or other ministries. The organization has a determination letter to recognize their tax-exempt status. The store has to file an annual report; the church does not. As a result of the reporting, the IRS codes the organization as a nonprofit business rather than as a church. After a while the store is discontinued and no longer files the annual report, but the church continues. Three years later they are on the Auto-Revocation List. The church is still tax exempt, just without a determination letter, which they could apply for again if they wanted. Just another reason to keep church and non-church structures separate.