Video of Virginia Mennonites from 1980

[Southerner]

There were several comments on YouTube along the lines of “look at how much worse things have gotten since then.” I’m sure there’s some truth to that, but I was impressed at how many of the people I knew in the film remained faithful and have children and grandchildren who are at the heart of our churches here today.

I'm still thinking about this. It seems to me the perspective of the filmmaker is that the deeper values are the ones that persist as the group fractures.

Ruth asks the question whether the values can continue to be held without the cultural framework.
Assuming John Ruth is the filmmaker, here is a documentary of sorts that shows how John and his wife's values changed over time.

It seems he and they thought the cultural framework was not needed in order to preserve some key values.
I, however, concur with those who believe that many values will get lost when the cultural framework is missing.
Here are some of the values that get preserved within a thick cultural framework.
https://towardthebetter.org/wp-content/ ... imilar.pdf

I am interested in knowing which of John Ruth's bishops is John Lapp. Kolb and Lapp are pictured at 10:45. John Lapp was a friend of preacher John Risser of Washington Franklin and is mentioned in Burdge and Horst's book.

[Southerner]

Ok, think I figured it out...Lapp is on the left and Kolb on the right. Kolb was the first minister ordained in Franconia on the basis of "gifts and call" vs the drawing of lots.

Another video that I recently watched...Regina Harlow's life story starts at the 30 mark and I found it deeply moving.

https://www.youtube.com/live/BBEhsiMRZg ... XuN2t6YjqQ

[HondurasKeiser]

... The feeling I get though, like when I read Franconia’s history is one of sadness and loss and what might have been if the conferences had gone a different direction so many decades ago.

What practical suggestions would you give if you could go back in time.

I'm not sure. I for the life of me though cannot understand how the bishops essentially threw their hands up and turned their backs on their own teaching. These same men were wearing the plain coat and their wives wore coverings and yet they didn't seem to believe in it enough to find a winsome way to bring the younger generations along into the praxis of the church.

[R7ehr]

... The feeling I get though, like when I read Franconia’s history is one of sadness and loss and what might have been if the conferences had gone a different direction so many decades ago.

What practical suggestions would you give if you could go back in time.

I'm not sure. I for the life of me though cannot understand how the bishops essentially threw their hands up and turned their backs on their own teaching. These same men were wearing the plain coat and their wives wore coverings and yet they didn't seem to believe in it enough to find a winsome way to bring the younger generations along into the praxis of the church.

Probably way too late. That is possibly the situation these bishops were in. They had already lost, and all the winsome ways in the world would never unring that bell.

[barnhart]

... The feeling I get though, like when I read Franconia’s history is one of sadness and loss and what might have been if the conferences had gone a different direction so many decades ago.

What practical suggestions would you give if you could go back in time.

I'm not sure. I for the life of me though cannot understand how the bishops essentially threw their hands up and turned their backs on their own teaching. These same men were wearing the plain coat and their wives wore coverings and yet they didn't seem to believe in it enough to find a winsome way to bring the younger generations along into the praxis of the church.

My perspective is similar that expressed by WesleyB, (we descend from the same tradition) that we appreciate the good that we have been handed and look to move forward. Drift and division are in some sense a safety valve that prevents worse things like violence and coersion. Church history says those who demand absolute compliance will eventually team up with the emporer to get it.

[mike]

What practical suggestions would you give if you could go back in time.

I'm not sure. I for the life of me though cannot understand how the bishops essentially threw their hands up and turned their backs on their own teaching. These same men were wearing the plain coat and their wives wore coverings and yet they didn't seem to believe in it enough to find a winsome way to bring the younger generations along into the praxis of the church.

My perspective is similar that expressed by WesleyB, (we descend from the same tradition) that we appreciate the good that we have been handed and look to move forward. Drift and division are in some sense a safety valve that prevents worse things like violence and coersion. Church history says those who demand absolute compliance will eventually team up with the emporer to get it.

That's a perspective I haven't heard before. I question the truth of the last sentence. There are many Anabaptists that have for centuries at this point required compliance to certain ways of thinking and living without teaming up with the emperor. They would call it the idea of a pure church, or the brotherhood of believers.

I guess if you look at it that way, drift and division are also the safety valve that prevents worse things like complete and total apostasy, given the inexorable pressures on the church to become more worldly and sensuous and less spiritual. If the church was intended to be a monolithic global organization that you basically cannot leave, history teaches us that at times you would be tied to some really corrupt people and organizations who claim the name of Jesus.

[barnhart]

I'm not sure. I for the life of me though cannot understand how the bishops essentially threw their hands up and turned their backs on their own teaching. These same men were wearing the plain coat and their wives wore coverings and yet they didn't seem to believe in it enough to find a winsome way to bring the younger generations along into the praxis of the church.

My perspective is similar that expressed by WesleyB, (we descend from the same tradition) that we appreciate the good that we have been handed and look to move forward. Drift and division are in some sense a safety valve that prevents worse things like violence and coersion. Church history says those who demand absolute compliance will eventually team up with the emporer to get it.

That's a perspective I haven't heard before. I question the truth of the last sentence. There are many Anabaptists that have for centuries at this point required compliance to certain ways of thinking and living without teaming up with the emperor. They would call it the idea of a pure church, or the brotherhood of believers.

I guess if you look at it that way, drift and division are also the safety valve that prevents worse things like complete and total apostasy, given the inexorable pressures on the church to become more worldly and sensuous and less spiritual. If the church was intended to be a monolithic global organization that you basically cannot leave, history teaches us that at times you would be tied to some really corrupt people and organizations who claim the name of Jesus.

Anabaptists have always existed on this side of the reformation so the temptation to team up with government hasn't hit us as it did earlier traditions. Our compliance is internal and in my way of thinking should allow people to leave easily when they want out. That's what I was hinting at by saying "absolute compliance".

Your last paragraph is spot on.

[Ernie]

Ok, think I figured it out...Lapp is on the left and Kolb on the right. Kolb was the first minister ordained in Franconia on the basis of "gifts and call" vs the drawing of lots.

Another video that I recently watched...Regina Harlow's life story starts at the 30 mark and I found it deeply moving.

https://www.youtube.com/live/BBEhsiMRZg ... XuN2t6YjqQ

A quite moving story... It will be interesting to see what other things she learns from the scriptures in the coming years!

[HondurasKeiser]

My perspective is similar that expressed by WesleyB, (we descend from the same tradition) that we appreciate the good that we have been handed and look to move forward. Drift and division are in some sense a safety valve that prevents worse things like violence and coersion. Church history says those who demand absolute compliance will eventually team up with the emporer to get it.

That's a perspective I haven't heard before. I question the truth of the last sentence. There are many Anabaptists that have for centuries at this point required compliance to certain ways of thinking and living without teaming up with the emperor. They would call it the idea of a pure church, or the brotherhood of believers.

I guess if you look at it that way, drift and division are also the safety valve that prevents worse things like complete and total apostasy, given the inexorable pressures on the church to become more worldly and sensuous and less spiritual. If the church was intended to be a monolithic global organization that you basically cannot leave, history teaches us that at times you would be tied to some really corrupt people and organizations who claim the name of Jesus.

Anabaptists have always existed on this side of the reformation so the temptation to team up with government hasn't hit us as it did earlier traditions. Our compliance is internal and in my way of thinking should allow people to leave easily when they want out. That's what I was hinting at by saying "absolute compliance".

Well yes, then let people leave. The Virginia bishops weren't forcing people into plain clothes and coverings at the point of a gun. I think though that had the bishops in Virginia, Franconia, Lancaster and elsewhere, held the line through the cultural upheaval of the 60's and 70's - the attrition rate would not have been significantly higher then as compared to previous decades.

[HondurasKeiser]

Ok, think I figured it out...Lapp is on the left and Kolb on the right. Kolb was the first minister ordained in Franconia on the basis of "gifts and call" vs the drawing of lots.

Another video that I recently watched...Regina Harlow's life story starts at the 30 mark and I found it deeply moving.

https://www.youtube.com/live/BBEhsiMRZg ... XuN2t6YjqQ

A quite moving story... It will be interesting to see what other things she learns from the scriptures in the coming years!

I was moved as well.