mike wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 8:08 am
I don't understand why Hamas/Iran does this? What do they think they will gain?
I think it's desperation. People who feel desperate do desperate things. I have talked to Palestinian friends who tell me they no longer feel safe in Israel. I have talked to Jewish friends who live in Israel and see this from a wide variety of different perspectives. I'm not sure they need our opinions or our weapons as much as they need our prayers and compassion.
To me, each side is committing terrorism against the other. Palestinians are not allowed to have a government to represent them, that's the reason it's not two governments at war. But Israel does not want to embrace Palestinians and give them full rights either. I cannot support the terrorism of either side. I have compassion for the victims. I see the very real need for people to have a safe place where they can live their lives, do business, live in their communities.
Your wording here seems to confuse the kingdom of God with the kingdoms of this world. Speaking of "our weapons" (!?) in the same sentence as "our prayers and compassion" doesn't make sense to me as a nonresistant Christian. I don't consider myself part of political and especially military solutions to problems.
You're right.
Better: I'm not sure they need our opinions or American weapons as much as they need our prayers and compassion.
Editorial | Netanyahu Bears Responsibility for This Israel-Gaza War
The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.
Netanyahu will certainly try to evade his responsibility and cast the blame on the heads of the army, Military Intelligence and the Shin Bet security service who, like their predecessors on the eve of the Yom Kippur War, saw a low probability of war with their preparations for a Hamas attack proving flawed.
They scorned the enemy and its offensive military capabilities. Over the next days and weeks, when the depth of Israel Defense Forces and intelligence failures come to light, a justified demand to replace them and take stock will surely arise.
However, the military and intelligence failure does not absolve Netanyahu of his overall responsibility for the crisis, as he is the ultimate arbiter of Israeli foreign and security affairs. Netanyahu is no novice in this role, like Ehud Olmert was in the Second Lebanon War. Nor is he ignorant in military matters, as Golda Meir in 1973 and Menachem Begin in 1982 claimed to be.
Netanyahu also shaped the policy embraced by the short-lived “government of change” led by Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid: a multidimensional effort to crush the Palestinian national movement in both its wings, in Gaza and the West Bank, at a price that would seem acceptable to the Israeli public.
In the past, Netanyahu marketed himself as a cautious leader who eschewed wars and multiple casualties on Israel’s side. After his victory in the last election, he replaced this caution with the policy of a “fully-right government,” with overt steps taken to annex the West Bank, to carry out ethnic cleansing in parts of the Oslo-defined Area C, including the Hebron Hills and the Jordan Valley.
This also included a massive expansion of settlements and bolstering of the Jewish presence on Temple Mount, near the Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as boasts of an impending peace deal with the Saudis in which the Palestinians would get nothing, with open talk of a “second Nakba” in his governing coalition. As expected, signs of an outbreak of hostilities began in the West Bank, where Palestinians started feeling the heavier hand of the Israeli occupier. Hamas exploited the opportunity in order to launch its surprise attack on Saturday.
Above all, the danger looming over Israel in recent years has been fully realized. A prime minister indicted in three corruption cases cannot look after state affairs, as national interests will necessarily be subordinate to extricating him from a possible conviction and jail time.
1 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
Editorial | Netanyahu Bears Responsibility for This Israel-Gaza War
The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.
Netanyahu will certainly try to evade his responsibility and cast the blame on the heads of the army, Military Intelligence and the Shin Bet security service who, like their predecessors on the eve of the Yom Kippur War, saw a low probability of war with their preparations for a Hamas attack proving flawed.
They scorned the enemy and its offensive military capabilities. Over the next days and weeks, when the depth of Israel Defense Forces and intelligence failures come to light, a justified demand to replace them and take stock will surely arise.
However, the military and intelligence failure does not absolve Netanyahu of his overall responsibility for the crisis, as he is the ultimate arbiter of Israeli foreign and security affairs. Netanyahu is no novice in this role, like Ehud Olmert was in the Second Lebanon War. Nor is he ignorant in military matters, as Golda Meir in 1973 and Menachem Begin in 1982 claimed to be.
Netanyahu also shaped the policy embraced by the short-lived “government of change” led by Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid: a multidimensional effort to crush the Palestinian national movement in both its wings, in Gaza and the West Bank, at a price that would seem acceptable to the Israeli public.
In the past, Netanyahu marketed himself as a cautious leader who eschewed wars and multiple casualties on Israel’s side. After his victory in the last election, he replaced this caution with the policy of a “fully-right government,” with overt steps taken to annex the West Bank, to carry out ethnic cleansing in parts of the Oslo-defined Area C, including the Hebron Hills and the Jordan Valley.
This also included a massive expansion of settlements and bolstering of the Jewish presence on Temple Mount, near the Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as boasts of an impending peace deal with the Saudis in which the Palestinians would get nothing, with open talk of a “second Nakba” in his governing coalition. As expected, signs of an outbreak of hostilities began in the West Bank, where Palestinians started feeling the heavier hand of the Israeli occupier. Hamas exploited the opportunity in order to launch its surprise attack on Saturday.
Above all, the danger looming over Israel in recent years has been fully realized. A prime minister indicted in three corruption cases cannot look after state affairs, as national interests will necessarily be subordinate to extricating him from a possible conviction and jail time.
I’ve generally liked Netanyahu but unfortunately this is spot on.
Gaza is an independent country that has basically lived under a siege for going on a decade now. If you treat people like that, eventually they just might fight back.
Ultimately the Palestinian people do have a right to exist and subjugating them as second class citizens for eternity isn’t going to be anymore sustainable than apartheid was in South Africa. Gaza is a nation full of people with nothing to lose. That makes them a formidable fighting force.
I hope we don’t see American lives and treasure lost and spent on this latest misadventure.
If Gaza is a nation, what obligation does Israel have to it at all? If it is a nation, how is it under siege? After all, it has a border with Egypt. What obligation does any country have to have trade and passage across its borders, from Gaza to Israel?
Now if Gaza isn’t its own country, they Israel’s responsibility does become different.
RZehr wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:54 pm
If Gaza is a nation, what obligation does Israel have to it at all? If it is a nation, how is it under siege? After all, it has a border with Egypt. What obligation does any country have to have trade and passage across its borders, from Gaza to Israel?
Now if Gaza isn’t its own country, they Israel’s responsibility does become different.
It has borders, it is a cohesive group of people with a duly elected government. The problem is, the people elected Hamas as their ruling party. Israel didn’t like that.
In effect the nation-state of Gaza and the nation-state of Israel are at war with one another and have been for quite some time.
The West Bank elected Fatah and the leadership there desires to distance themselves from Hamas.
Egypt is not a fan of Hamas or the nation state of Gaza either and basically keeps a closed border, contributing to the siege. Ultimately Gazans seem to have decided they want Hamas as their elected government, though, and that probably isn’t going to change anytime soon.
RZehr wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 7:54 pm
If Gaza is a nation, what obligation does Israel have to it at all? If it is a nation, how is it under siege? After all, it has a border with Egypt. What obligation does any country have to have trade and passage across its borders, from Gaza to Israel?
Now if Gaza isn’t its own country, they Israel’s responsibility does become different.
Gaza is a quasi-nation I suppose. The people of Gaza elected Hamas as their government back in 2006 and haven't held an election since. Although public opinion polls put the Gazan support for Hamas at about 50%. So they do essentially represent Gaza even though they haven't subjected themselves to an election.
Gaza is connected to some extent to the West Bank which has elected Mahmoud Abbas as their president back in 2005 from the Fatah party.
So basically you have the Palestinian territories split into two parts, one represented by Hamas and the other by Fatah and they hate each other. But in theory it is one territory and there should be freedom of movement between the West Bank and Gaza. Israel, however, prohibits that. And basically controls all access to Gaza including by air and sea. So yes, it is under seige.
Edit. I see Josh beat me to it but it seems we both agree, imagine that.
1 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
For a coordinated attack of this size there has been massive planning for a long time and involving hundreds or probably thousands of people. The fact this was kept secret tells me Hamas has a high level of support or at least tolerance in the general population.
RZehr wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2023 10:47 pm
What is stopping Egypt from opening their Gaza border? Is South Korea “under siege? They are blocked by North Korea.
Nothing other than the fact that no Arab state has ever wanted to take any Palestinian refugees EVER.
For the simple reason that it has always been in their interest to see the situation fester in Israel. They don't want to be an escape valve for Israeli expansionist and settler policies.
0 x
A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
