Christians killing each other

[Neto]

Is the conflict between the Ukrainian and Russian churches a contributor to that animosity or a reflection of it?

I honestly have no idea. Probably a little of both but mostly the latter.

Very much so. And history runs long and deep here. Do you know about the Holodomor?

The Soviet Union conquered Ukraine in 1917. Under Lenin, they were permitted to have their own language and culture. That all changed under Stalin, with repression and genocide.

By the end of the 1920s, Soviet leader Joseph Stalin consolidated his control over the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Feeling threatened by Ukraine's strengthening cultural autonomy, Stalin took measures to destroy the Ukrainian peasantry and the Ukrainian intellectual and cultural elites to prevent them from seeking independence for Ukraine.

To prevent "Ukrainian national counterrevolution," Stalin initiated mass-scale political repressions through widespread intimidation, arrests, and imprisonment. Thousands of Ukrainian intellectuals, church leaders, and Ukrainian Communist Party functionaries who had supported pro-Ukrainian policies were executed by the Soviet regime.

The Holodomor ended in 1933. Collectivization was complete with all farmland becoming a socialist property and all farmers working for the state. According to recent demographic studies, 13.3 percent of Ukraine's population died at the time of the Holodomor. In some regions of Ukraine, the percentage of deaths due to the Famine were higher; for example, the rate was 19 percent in Kyiv and 29 percent in Kharkiv oblasts. The Holodomor wiped out millions of Ukrainians. Promotion of a 'new Soviet identity' and official pressure on Ukrainians to use the Russian language intensified. Even when the Holodomor ended, Ukrainians didn't really stop suffering. The families of Holodomor victims feared hunger and further repressions for the rest of their lives, and this fear was passed onto future generations. They were soon to experience new traumas: Stalin's purges of 1937-38, World War II, Nazi occupation and the Holocaust, and the 1946-47 famine.

Another consequence of the Holodomor in Ukraine was a loss of collective memory. In Soviet Ukraine, the Holodomor was kept out of official public discourse until shortly before Ukraine won its independence in 1991. We now know that explicit instructions were issued throughout the Soviet Union banning the use of the word famine, not only in party and military documents but also in medical records and statistical accounts.

And this clearly included an attempt to destroy the Ukranian Orthodox Church:

Lemkin identified four integral components in the genocidal process in Ukraine:

• The decimation of the Ukrainian national elites (political and cultural leaders),
• The destruction of the Ukrainian Autocephalous (independent) Orthodox Church (its clergy and hierarchy),
• The starvation of the Ukrainian farming population (the Holodomor), and
• Its replacement with non-Ukrainians from the RSFSR and elsewhere.

In fact, the reduction of the Ukrainian population was so severe that Stalin repressed the results of the 1937 census, and had some functionaries of that office executed.

On a FaceBook Mennonite History & Genealogy group another member posted (in German) a long comment which put all of the blame for the current events on laws passed in Ukraine naming Ukrainian as the national language, saying that the Russian speaking people felt demeaned, as second-rate citizens. But that is what the Ukrainians went through during the Stalin era (and probably the following years as well), and they had no freedom to move somewhere else. They had no other homeland.

[PetrChelcicky]

On a FaceBook Mennonite History & Genealogy group another member posted (in German) a long comment which put all of the blame for the current events on laws passed in Ukraine naming Ukrainian as the national language, saying that the Russian speaking people felt demeaned, as second-rate citizens. But that is what the Ukrainians went through during the Stalin era (and probably the following years as well), and they had no freedom to move somewhere else. They had no other homeland.

And that's just the central problem.
My brother has treated me badly, and now I treat him badly - either from an urge to retaliate or simply because I think this is the normal way of life (if I am in power I must treat him thus for not to lose my power).
But there COULD be a new life when we stop to imitate our brother. When we instead argue: I have suffered badly from that treatment by you - so I want to create conditions where neither of us has to suffer that way. Let's make an agreement that we both will not treat each other the same way again.

What's with us outsiders?
We should not judge the man who is just in power and abuses his powers. We should not judge the victim for having acted wrong in a similar way (and now tending to perceive itself as innocent). But we should emphasize that there CAN be a new life.
There's hope. My German Fellowship of Reconciliation has just got a message from Ukrainian fellows. And in Russia, as I have read, there are "walkers" against the war (walking as a substitute for impossible demonstrations). There are hidden reconciliation processes in and under every war, and there is a chance for open reconciliation after every war.

[temporal1]

On a FaceBook Mennonite History & Genealogy group another member posted (in German) a long comment which put all of the blame for the current events on laws passed in Ukraine naming Ukrainian as the national language, saying that the Russian speaking people felt demeaned, as second-rate citizens. But that is what the Ukrainians went through during the Stalin era (and probably the following years as well), and they had no freedom to move somewhere else. They had no other homeland.

And that's just the central problem.
My brother has treated me badly, and now I treat him badly - either from an urge to retaliate or simply because I think this is the normal way of life (if I am in power I must treat him thus for not to lose my power).

But there COULD be a new life when we stop to imitate our brother.

When we instead argue: I have suffered badly from that treatment by you - so I want to create conditions where neither of us has to suffer that way. Let's make an agreement that we both will not treat each other the same way again.

What's with us outsiders?
We should not judge the man who is just in power and abuses his powers.
We should not judge the victim for having acted wrong in a similar way (and now tending to perceive itself as innocent).

But we should emphasize that there CAN be a new life.

There's hope.
My German Fellowship of Reconciliation has just got a message from Ukrainian fellows.
And in Russia, as I have read, there are "walkers" against the war (walking as a substitute for impossible demonstrations).

There are hidden reconciliation processes in and under every war, and there is a chance for open reconciliation after every war.

This is thinking “like” Jesus; Jesus went further. His selfless submissions inspired shame on the shameless.

i admire Russia’s walkers for choosing language intended to invite peace and tolerance.
Those bent on conflict and intolerance will reject their words and replace them with ones of their own choosing. No peace.

Their words will not be wasted on all.

[Bootstrap]

As this thread has proven, it's next to impossible to discuss the actual affairs of the kingdoms of the world from a KOG perspective other than a concise statement like JBG wrote in the OP.

I agree. And perhaps it's next to impossible to discuss anything at all from a KOG perspective because we are so used to discussing everything from other perspectives. Which is precisely why should work at it.

I agree with JBG's statement. But I think we really can go beyond this, even from a KOG perspective. Ukraine is a country where people live. Ukraine is a country where homes and schools and hospitals are being bombed and everyday people are facing the horrors of war. I imagine there are pacifist Christians and Mennonites in Ukraine as well. If there were a war here in North Carolina, my neighbors and I would probably have little choice, our actions would not have caused it.

Half or more of the people who die in a war are civilians. The war is not being fought in Russia, it is being fought in Ukraine, that's where most of the victims of war are to be found. I think the Kingdom of God has compassion for the victims of war and prays and cares for them.

[Bootstrap]

There's hope. My German Fellowship of Reconciliation has just got a message from Ukrainian fellows. And in Russia, as I have read, there are "walkers" against the war (walking as a substitute for impossible demonstrations). There are hidden reconciliation processes in and under every war, and there is a chance for open reconciliation after every war.

These are good.

And there's prayer and caring for refugees. We need to find ways to be the Kingdom of God wherever we are.

[Sudsy]

A thread in the General Theology forum turning into political judgments and a discussion of which side is worse...

From a KOG perspective, mixing Christianity in with the affairs of the kingdoms of the world is not the Christianity of our King, the Lord Jesus.

Good point. We need a thread where we can simply agree that Christians should not be killing each other or anyone else. I think we may also need a thread for grieving and praying and asking what God would want us, as members of the KOG, to do.

As this thread has proven, it's next to impossible to discuss the actual affairs of the kingdoms of the world from a KOG perspective other than a concise statement like JBG wrote in the OP.

I wonder why this is impossible. Could it be that there is more enjoyment in arguing over the events going on in this world and what the world should think and do about them than there is about the enjoyment in doing our part in bringing people into the KOG ? I don't disagree that prayer is one of the things required but I think we already know what else we should be doing to further His Kingdom. Or should.

Seems to me we often major on what a Christian should not be doing (i.e. killing people ) and too little on what we should be doing if we believe we are all to be engaged in growing the KOG. But then again, it seems we don't agree on this either.

There have always been those who refer back to OT warring as support for living at KOG life and ask God to bless their efforts. But if we are to follow Jesus according to the New Covenant, our battle is not with flesh and blood, whether it be with unbelievers or professing believers, but against the powers of darkness in the spirit realm. And the weapons we have to fight this battle are explained in the NT.

It is amazing to me how many threads there are that get into discussions on how other kingdoms and governments are not doing what they should or some other earthly matter and then at some point, but not always, someone refers the conversation back to a spiritual/eternal perspective. Usually followed by some sort of 'amen' and then another thread pops up that again majors on this other world outlook. Just how 'of the world' are we ?

YMMV. I miss MaxPc. Anyone heard anything ?

[GaryK]

As this thread has proven, it's next to impossible to discuss the actual affairs of the kingdoms of the world from a KOG perspective other than a concise statement like JBG wrote in the OP.

I wonder why this is impossible. Could it be that there is more enjoyment in arguing over the events going on in this world and what the world should think and do about them than there is about the enjoyment in doing our part in bringing people into the KOG ? I don't disagree that prayer is one of the things required but I think we already know what else we should be doing to further His Kingdom. Or should.

Seems to me we often major on what a Christian should not be doing (i.e. killing people ) and too little on what we should be doing if we believe we are all to be engaged in growing the KOG. But then again, it seems we don't agree on this either.

There have always been those who refer back to OT warring as support for living at KOG life and ask God to bless their efforts. But if we are to follow Jesus according to the New Covenant, our battle is not with flesh and blood, whether it be with unbelievers or professing believers, but against the powers of darkness in the spirit realm. And the weapons we have to fight this battle are explained in the NT.

It is amazing to me how many threads there are that get into discussions on how other kingdoms and governments are not doing what they should or some other earthly matter and then at some point, but not always, someone refers the conversation back to a spiritual/eternal perspective. Usually followed by some sort of 'amen' and then another thread pops up that again majors on this other world outlook. Just how 'of the world' are we ?

YMMV. I miss MaxPc. Anyone heard anything ?

My point is that it's next to impossible to insert a KOG perspective into the Russia-Ukraine war or any other political matter because attempting to do so is an attempt to bring together two forces (the KOG and the kingdom of the world) that cannot merge.

[Josh]

Here’s a KOG perspective:

Mennonites used to live in the Ukraine. Lots of them, probably more there than anywhere else. Back then it was just called “Russia”, hence the term “Russian Mennonites”.

Sincere believers became concerned about being pressed into Russian military service. They left the country in 1874.

Many other stayed. Some of the Mennonites fought against the Russians. Elsewhere on MennoNet these Mennonites have been very harshly condemned for picking up arms to fight the Russians who invaded Ukraine in the 1930s. And I would agree with the assessment…

… what is odd is to see present day Mennonites wholeheartedly endorsing fighting back against Russia now, and in particular endorsing a government that allies itself with neo-Nazis as somehow morally superior to Russia. That’s what’s so odd to me. Isn’t this a repeat of the mistakes of the 1930s?

[Sudsy]

My point is that it's next to impossible to insert a KOG perspective into the Russia-Ukraine war or any other political matter because attempting to do so is an attempt to bring together two forces (the KOG and the kingdom of the world) that cannot merge.

Agree. Good point !!!

[Neto]

Deleted.

(I encourage interested parties to do their own research on the history of the 'Russian Mennonites'.)