Ken wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:11 pm
The smallest group by far are those who who accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts and allowed Him to make a change in them such that they become better, more compassionate people who are genuinely concerned with the welfare of others. These are the true Christians.
Ok. So to revisit an earlier question ... how many presidents have been Christians? No need to identify them by name, but how about taking a stab at an approximate percentage?
I have absolutely no idea. I think some were very good and ethical men who relied on Christian principles to guide their decision-making. But I also think the nature of the job is such that one must follow the Constitution and deal with worldly burdens that are far beyond and apart from the Kingdom of God. Presidents swear an oath of office as follows: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Do we live in a world in which no "True Christian" can take the oath of office and only non-Christians can serve as President? I don't think even most Mennonites actually believe that. Because every election there is a discussion about which candidate is more "Christian". My mother would probably say that a good Mennonite can't be President but that "other" Christians can and should, and she will happily use her own Christian filter when voting for President or any other office.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
ohio jones wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:33 pm
Ok. So to revisit an earlier question ... how many presidents have been Christians? No need to identify them by name, but how about taking a stab at an approximate percentage?
One president that I'm fairly sure of, having attended the Sunday School class he taught several times. I have reason to suspect several more from things I've read. Approximate percentage of 10%?
Ken wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 4:11 pm
The smallest group by far are those who who accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts and allowed Him to make a change in them such that they become better, more compassionate people who are genuinely concerned with the welfare of others. These are the true Christians.
Ok. So to revisit an earlier question ... how many presidents have been Christians? No need to identify them by name, but how about taking a stab at an approximate percentage?
I have absolutely no idea. I think some were very good and ethical men who relied on Christian principles to guide their decision-making. But I also think the nature of the job is such that one must follow the Constitution and deal with worldly burdens that are far beyond and apart from the Kingdom of God. Presidents swear an oath of office as follows: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Do we live in a world in which no "True Christian" can take the oath of office and only non-Christians can serve as President? I don't think even most Mennonites actually believe that. Because every election there is a discussion about which candidate is more "Christian". My mother would probably say that a good Mennonite can't be President but that "other" Christians can and should, and she will happily use her own Christian filter when voting for President or any other office.
A conservative Mennonite view is that, as a genuine follower of Jesus, one could not be Commander in Chief and likewise do things like make decisions about ordering a nuclear strike.
Somehow Nixon managed to be a Quaker despite this, which seems rather far removed from the days of George Fox who was generally busy preaching it the magistrates and making a nuisance of himself by refusing to swear any oaths before the court before he got tried for, well, not submitting under the state church.
RZehr wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:31 amI’m saying that “minority beliefs” are argued to be justification for the erosion of Christian beliefs and protection, all the while knowing that “minority beliefs” was not a reason to keep LGBTQ or abortion rights from being eroded. Those minority values were forced upon the majority through the courts, while the liberals who happen to support them tell religious folks to hush because religious values are in the minority and therefor, in the name of democracy, accept it.
Where was the hushing to these other groups? Why shouldn’t they have to accept the majority in the name of democracy?
Religious rights are the oldest and most important rights in this country.
I'm really somewhat confused as to what you are talking about.
Minority values or beliefs aren't forced on anyone. You can't force a belief on anyone.
We still have white supremacists in this country who believe that the Confederacy should have won and black people should still be in chains. And it is their right to believe that if they want. They just can't act on it.
As for "minority rights". There really isn't such as concept as minority rights in this country. There are only rights period. That everyone, majorities and minorities are entitled to. The Constitution and bill of rights applies equally to everyone. At least in theory. Although we haven't always lived up to that ideal.
“Minority rights”, my term, refers simply to rights that are not shared by the majority but are protected from democracy or the mob. One example is the electoral college. Another would be the freedom of speech (which was instituted to as a religious protection). But enough about that term. The real issue at hand here, is the idea that when it comes to religious issues, we can’t expect everyone else to jump to our minority tune, we can’t have a minority control everyone else through intensity. All the while that is exactly what happened with the other groups minority views.
Here is the comment I’m talking about:
Bootstrap wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:31 pm
There seems to be a notion that a minority can control everyone else in a democracy just by being more intense.
Somehow it works that way for the LGBTQ folks.
And it was a minority that made both homosexual rights and abortion legal in the US.
But it can’t work that way for the much larger, yet still minority, anti-abortion folks? One of the purported benefits of a Republic is supposed to be minority protection, right?
You say:
“Minority values or beliefs aren't forced on anyone. You can't force a belief on anyone.”
I disagree. While I agree to a certain extent, particularly when one is hamfisted about it, one can certainly accomplish it if one goes about it cleverly.
Plenty of governments and religions have accomplished that. And we have just watched a coalition of the courts and the media and academia and a minority with intensity, accomplish the same thing in this country.
And adult people who are casually religious, are actually more political that religious, and are tend to equate legal with moral.
And so the peoples core beliefs change with the law, and are then reflected in the opinion polls. Children are brainwashed at school, and parents are more interested in other things than teaching their children Truth. So the children accept the lies.
temporal1 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:55 am
RZehr,
i agree with your observations.
i’ll file them under, “Train wrecks after human reasoning goes to law school.”
boot:
There seems to be a notion that a minority can control everyone else in a democracy just by being more intense.
Yes. Avoid organized political blocs+cults, this is their sole reason to exist.
2023: HISTORY
i’m dumbfounded. common sense found in Huntington Beach, CA?!
HUNTINGTON BEACH, Calif. (KABC) -- After a heated meeting, Huntington Beach is tightening its rules on flag displays.
The city council voted Tuesday night 4-3 to limit flags that can be flown on city property, which includes the rainbow gay pride flag.
The new ordinance will only allow the American flag, the California state flag, the Huntington Beach flag, the Orange County flag and the POW/MIA flag to be displayed.
The proposal was criticized by those who wanted the city to continue displaying the rainbow flag during LGBT pride month in June.
Hundreds of people contacted the city to weigh in on the issue.
Basic common sense. In Huntington Beach, CA
i wasn’t sure where to put this report, there are numerous references to flags in several threads.
This report isn’t about Christianity, in my view, it’s just neutral common sense for gov property;
i think it’s something to note in response to RZehr’s thoughts found here.
The U.S. shouldn’t be in the business of creating super-citizens. (That’s not about equality, democracies, or republics.)
Equal, not special.
ohio jones wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:33 pm
Ok. So to revisit an earlier question ... how many presidents have been Christians? No need to identify them by name, but how about taking a stab at an approximate percentage?
One president that I'm fairly sure of, having attended the Sunday School class he taught several times. I have reason to suspect several more from things I've read. Approximate percentage of 10%?
Eisenhower took baptism classes, received baptism and church membership while in office.
From Eisenhower's Wikipedia page I found this interesting and did not know he had River Brethren roots:
His parents set aside specific times at breakfast and at dinner for daily family Bible reading. Chores were regularly assigned and rotated among all the children, and misbehavior was met with unequivocal discipline, usually from David.[18] His mother, previously a member (with David) of the River Brethren sect of the Mennonites, joined the International Bible Students Association, later known as Jehovah's Witnesses. The Eisenhower home served as the local meeting hall from 1896 to 1915, though Eisenhower never joined the International Bible Students.[19] His later decision to attend West Point saddened his mother, who felt that warfare was "rather wicked", but she did not overrule his decision.[20] While speaking of himself in 1948, Eisenhower said he was "one of the most deeply religious men I know" though unattached to any "sect or organization". He was baptized in the Presbyterian Church in 1953.[21]
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
ohio jones wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:33 pm Ok. So to revisit an earlier question ... how many presidents have been Christians? No need to identify them by name, but how about taking a stab at an approximate percentage?
(as claimed) most? close to 100%? protestants of some description, which makes sense, considering history. JFK caused a scandal, being Catholic.
i avoid trying to decide whether politicians are Christian, i don’t know;
i pray for them to be inspired leaders, whether they are Christian or not, for the good of all. God’s discretion determines inspiration. He has used scoundrels for His end purposes. some, like biden, and others, i find fairly hopeless. but he claims to be Catholic. God will decide.
I recommend the members posting in this thread read the 2023-2024 global religious landscape survey. Decline is slowing but it will definitely continue for the forseeable future. Decline will most likely lead to Christians being a demographic minority in this country by the time I am dead 2070 or 2080 according to a previous post by Pew Research prior to the latest global religious landscape survey. To my knowledge the only denominations likely to continue growing are Nondenominational churches which really just hide what they practice under that label and abandoned having a larger organization and leadership beyond their church they are the same as other denominations just with less high church trappings and a different church polity where the pastor has all the say. Pentecostal is declining but they are growing in the rest of the world rapidly so I expect them to make a comeback at some point. The Catholics are losing some of the most members period but seem to have leveled off presumably due to immigration and high birth rates which the religious landscape survey did not discuss. I think J-Witnesses, Mormons and Eastern Orthodox are growing in America due to previous studies separate to pew research such as the general social survey. Anabaptism is clearly growing by demographic trends I have seen but most modern studies do not seem capable of accounting for anabaptists well likely because a large number of them are secluded from society and do not use a lot of technology and are difficult to reach. I expect Christianity will continue to decline, and I do wonder if the temporary partial leveling off had to do with the election of Joe Biden and that there is a seasonal effect based on reaction to the media cycle and US Presidential Politics. If everyone vilifies the conservatives and sees Christianity as a conservative echo chamber than likely they will cause more socially liberal minded people to leave Christianity. It could also be true that we are seeing the beginning of an equivalent to the Reagan Revolution in modern day and things will change. I personally think that the data clearly shows younger people are largely not getting more Christian over time at least not in the nominal and sacral forms. The decline is presenting as more gradual in the Midwest and Southeast. Its possible if the US nominal Christians lose political power that without political backing or the hope of one they will abandon Christianity, it is also popular they may swap from trying to control the government to trying to isolate themselves from it in a more kingdom Christianity sort of way. I want the thoughts of the anabaptists in this thread on that.
I will say the Methodist Church I go to will be gone in only about 20 years or less with how many elderly go there.
Divos25 wrote: ↑Sat May 24, 2025 6:10 pm
I hope I am not gravedigging this thread.
I want the thoughts of the anabaptists in this thread on that.
I will say the Methodist Church I go to will be gone in only about 20 years or less with how many elderly go there.
About the grow of mennonites and amish through birth rate yes i think that's how new members are made not really a significant percentage is made through conversion
Regarding the general decline of Christianity, it seems to me that it's a more European phenomenon than an American one, perhaps in very liberal churches (those that support abortion and gay marriage). There will be a significant reduction because it's an incoherent opposition, and people tend not to tolerate cognitive dissonance for long.
2023: HISTORY 
