A wife must stay quiet and submissive. Change my mind.

[Soloist]

Question. Is it WIVES who must stay quiet and submissive. Or is it WOMEN?

Discuss....

Well if the woman is a child, they should be obedient to their father as the son should as well. Otherwise, the verses teaching this consept of not teaching apply to women, the submitting applies to wives.

If a woman is unmarried, she doesn't need to submit to a figure other then her parents and the church.

[Josh]

Question. Is it WIVES who must stay quiet and submissive. Or is it WOMEN?

Discuss....

Well if the woman is a child, they should be obedient to their father as the son should as well. Otherwise, the verses teaching this consept of not teaching apply to women, the submitting applies to wives.

If a woman is unmarried, she doesn't need to submit to a figure other then her parents and the church.

I would argue adult women (and men) have a lot less duty to submit to / obey their parents too, although obviously there is no need to be obnoxious and rebellious.

But I’ve seen demands for adult children to slavishly do whatever their father says used to condone blatant sin and emotional abuse, and that’s flat out wrong. One of the more ridiculous examples was someone whose father forbid them to attend church, and some of the church people involved weren’t sure if that adult child should go to church anymore!

[Soloist]

I would argue adult women (and men) have a lot less duty to submit to / obey their parents too, although obviously there is no need to be obnoxious and rebellious.

But I’ve seen demands for adult children to slavishly do whatever their father says used to condone blatant sin and emotional abuse, and that’s flat out wrong. One of the more ridiculous examples was someone whose father forbid them to attend church, and some of the church people involved weren’t sure if that adult child should go to church anymore!

Well just as the wife is not to obey sin, nor are the children.

This is a little like the church relationship to the members, some churches mandate little things, some mandate only big things. Likewise with husbands and wives and children and their parents.

A wise parent lets their child make bad choices sometimes as they learn more from mistakes. Also, I'm not advocating a parent "rules" over their adult child.

I would challenge anyone though to show me in Scripture where I am wrong.

[steve-in-kville]

If a woman is unmarried, she doesn't need to submit to a figure other then her parents and the church.

I think its wise for a single adult woman to seek advise from an older brother or the parents if they are still in the picture.

[Ken]

If a woman is unmarried, she doesn't need to submit to a figure other then her parents and the church.

I think its wise for a single adult woman to seek advise from an older brother or the parents if they are still in the picture.

Why an older brother and not an older sister or other older women (cousins, aunts, etc.)

And are the obligations for young women any different from those of young men in terms of seeking advice and counsel from elders? Because you don't hear the same sort of language used for young men, at least not as commonly as for young women.

[Ken]

Question. Is it WIVES who must stay quiet and submissive. Or is it WOMEN?

Discuss....

Well if the woman is a child, they should be obedient to their father as the son should as well. Otherwise, the verses teaching this consept of not teaching apply to women, the submitting applies to wives.

If a woman is unmarried, she doesn't need to submit to a figure other then her parents and the church.

I would argue adult women (and men) have a lot less duty to submit to / obey their parents too, although obviously there is no need to be obnoxious and rebellious.

But I’ve seen demands for adult children to slavishly do whatever their father says used to condone blatant sin and emotional abuse, and that’s flat out wrong. One of the more ridiculous examples was someone whose father forbid them to attend church, and some of the church people involved weren’t sure if that adult child should go to church anymore!

Perhaps this is a subject for another thread. But I tend to agree. My wife and I are in the middle of this with both elderly parents and children of our own. While I do think family responsibility flows both directions (we care for both our elders and youngsters) I do think it is not equal. I think our primary responsibility flows downwards towards our children. For example, my wife's mother can be needy, demanding, and controlling in ways that sometimes conflict with our obligation to our children. We sometimes have to just tell her "no." That doesn't mean we wouldn't be there in cases of actual need. But we do prioritize our children over our parents when push comes to shove as they are our primarily obligation and our parents have had their entire lives to sort out their affairs.

[Szdfan]

I've been in conversation with conservative Mennos and ex-conservative Mennos who are either questioning or rejecting these teachings because the harm it's caused in their own lives. I think that any kind of rigid order can easily be abused or misused. Even in the best cases, this teaching has a tendency to infantilize women and elevate men into "headship" who may not be competent or suitable for the role.

I've known elderly women who were so dependent on their husbands that after their husbands died, didn't know how to to basic life tasks, like how to pump gas into their car. I can't imagine how a rigid order that gives some people power or demands others submit simply on the basis of their genitalia doesn't end up enabling abuse.

[steve-in-kville]

Why an older brother and not an older sister or other older women (cousins, aunts, etc.)

And are the obligations for young women any different from those of young men in terms of seeking advice and counsel from elders? Because you don't hear the same sort of language used for young men, at least not as commonly as for young women.

Some good points, Ken. Perhaps this should be a thread of its own.

[Neto]

If the third one is supposed to read "decisions", then I end up in the last category, with some sort of obligation to explain. I believe that the marriage relationship should be complementary. I struggle to express what I think it should look like, however. If one used the congregational church government model as it relates to the decision making process in the church board and the pastor as an example, one might say that the wife, like the pastor in such a church government model, has a voice (that is, they may speak), but does not have a vote. (Obviously the church board, if the pastor has their vote of confidence in the bi-annual review, will place a great deal of importance on listening to his viewpoint.) But perhaps this illustration isn't really very good, because in this model of congregational government the congregation makes the business decisions; the church board just makes motions, which are then acted upon (revised, amended, approved, or defeated, as the case may be) by the congregation.

So I'm back at square one w/o an explanation or even an illustration of what I mean. I'll just dig myself in deeper. I think that there are different realms of operation and decision within a home, and some are in the husband's "jurisdiction", and others in the wife's. Meal planning, grocery shopping, and for me, home decoration, and since I don't know how to match clothing colors, to a very large degree, even what I wear - these are in my wife's realm, and I don't "interfere". (I've also "learned" that an attached garage is a part of the house, so she holds sway there. But, and here's where I'll probably get myself in trouble, I think that an UNattached garage or shop is the man's realm, unless she is the primary user, that is, if it's really her shop.)

Now if I wanted to dig a REALLY deep hole, I'd say more, but I'd better refrain.

[Ken]

Responding to Neto, I think every good marriage is complementarian to the extent that everyone brings different strengths and weaknesses into each relationship. I don’t think those are necessarily the stereotypical male and female roles either. My wife and I have settled into a comfortable division of labor that sometimes matches traditional sex roles, and sometimes doesn’t. I like cooking more than she does, for example. On the other hand, she is more social and keeps us more engaged with friends, neighbors, relatives, etc. If were not for her, we’d probably barely have any friends. We do share the big decisions though, like how to raise our kids, our big ticket financial decisions. I would not want it any other way.

I think part of finding a good partner in life is finding someone who complements your strengths and weaknesses. But I think that is different from what is commonly meant by complementatianism from a conservative religious perspective which is more bound up in traditional sex roles that I don’t think are necessarily even biblical.