Prayers for the Catholic Church

[Ken]

Is there something about that particular crime that justifies expecting clergy to be agents of the state, but not the other crimes?

Yes in fact there is. See if you can figure out what it is.

Please detail what it is. For example, should a priest have to report something involving a person who is abused who is 17 years and 11 months old, but no obligation whatsoever if they are 18 years and 1 month?

Nope. Wrong answer. Try again. It isn’t a hard question.

[JohnH]

Yes in fact there is. See if you can figure out what it is.

Please detail what it is. For example, should a priest have to report something involving a person who is abused who is 17 years and 11 months old, but no obligation whatsoever if they are 18 years and 1 month?

Nope. Wrong answer. Try again. It isn’t a hard question.

I also asked a simple question. It’s not hard either.

[Ken]

Please detail what it is. For example, should a priest have to report something involving a person who is abused who is 17 years and 11 months old, but no obligation whatsoever if they are 18 years and 1 month?

Nope. Wrong answer. Try again. It isn’t a hard question.

I also asked a simple question. It’s not hard either.

OK, thought experiment.

Say you call child welfare to report that your 30 year old neighbor is sleeping with his 20 year old girlfriend. Do you think they will be interested and open a case? If not, why not?

Now say you call child welfare to report that your same 30 year old neighbor is sleeping with his 4 year old niece. Do you think they might actually investigate that report? Why is that scenario different from the first one?

In case you don't understand the difference, the law most certainly does. And you can read up on the child abuse laws for any state if you can't figure out what the difference between these two scenarios is. The specific laws in each state are different, but they all more or less rhyme.

[JohnH]

Ken,

It should be rather obvious that a law that does something like break the confessional seal, remove rights from the accused, interfere with freedom of speech or rights to be free from search and seizure that starts with “this is just to protect children” will gradually expand in scope to cover other heinous crimes, then less-heinous crimes, and eventually include things like tax evasion or violating immigration laws.

As I said earlier, priests don’t need to be part of the state or work for the government, particularly when they are in the confessional booth. I do not think there is some large body of criminals who will be caught if we could just require priests to start taking notes in the confessional booth and report those notes to the police.

And it would also be impossible to report such a law. What’s next? Surveillance in the confessional booth?

[Ken]

Ken,

It should be rather obvious that a law that does something like break the confessional seal, remove rights from the accused, interfere with freedom of speech or rights to be free from search and seizure that starts with “this is just to protect children” will gradually expand in scope to cover other heinous crimes, then less-heinous crimes, and eventually include things like tax evasion or violating immigration laws.

As I said earlier, priests don’t need to be part of the state or work for the government, particularly when they are in the confessional booth. I do not think there is some large body of criminals who will be caught if we could just require priests to start taking notes in the confessional booth and report those notes to the police.

And it would also be impossible to report such a law. What’s next? Surveillance in the confessional booth?

I answered you on the other thread. But I'll repeat it here:

So is it working?

Compared to Anabaptists, are Catholics more free of sin and more "saved" because of the "sacrament of confession" or "confessional seal" Is that what you believe?

In any event, none of this is about wiretapping the confessional or whatever far-fetched notions you are going on about. It is simply about expecting clergy who work with children to do the same as every other professional who works with children. Namely, to do their part to protect children from abuse by reporting it when it comes to their attention.

Will priests be prosecuted and jailed if they fail to do that? Most likely not. Teachers and nurses aren't generally prosecuted and jailed if they fail to report either. Maybe they face some sort of professional reprimand but that is about it. On rare occasions you do hear cases of teachers being prosecuted for failing to report child abuse but they are extremely unusual. For example, this was 2 months ago: https://www.news9.com/story/67ed7ead3ce ... -sex-abuse but these sorts of examples are pretty rare. And isn't this exactly what we want to happen? Isn't that what this thread is about? For teachers and the public schools to help stamp out sexual predators not cover up for them?

What will most likely happen next time (and there is ALWAYS a next time) is that the church will once again be faced with accusations of covering up child abuse and protecting sexual predators. And they will have to answer like everyone else for what they did or didn't do. One hopes that they will will be a positive force and not a negative one. I guess we shall see.

[JohnH]

So is it working?

Compared to Anabaptists, are Catholics more free of sin and more "saved" because of the "sacrament of confession" or "confessional seal" Is that what you believe?

I respect the right of Catholics to practice their own religion, even if I don't agree with it. I do not personally believe in or practice the sacrament of confession and don't do anything that would involve a confessional seal.

In any event, none of this is about wiretapping the confessional or whatever far-fetched notions you are going on about. It is simply about expecting clergy who work with children to do the same as every other professional who works with children. Namely, to do their part to protect children from abuse by reporting it when it comes to their attention.

In other words, it's about the state dictating to a religious group how they should practice their religion, and expect them to change it in order to help the state conduct its own criminal investigations.

Did I get that right?

[Ken]

So is it working?

Compared to Anabaptists, are Catholics more free of sin and more "saved" because of the "sacrament of confession" or "confessional seal" Is that what you believe?

I respect the right of Catholics to practice their own religion, even if I don't agree with it. I do not personally believe in or practice the sacrament of confession and don't do anything that would involve a confessional seal.

In any event, none of this is about wiretapping the confessional or whatever far-fetched notions you are going on about. It is simply about expecting clergy who work with children to do the same as every other professional who works with children. Namely, to do their part to protect children from abuse by reporting it when it comes to their attention.

In other words, it's about the state dictating to a religious group how they should practice their religion, and expect them to change it in order to help the state conduct its own criminal investigations.

Did I get that right?

To the extent that their religious practice involves covering up for child molesters yes. Beyond that, no.

Would you be equally sanguine if a public school teacher claimed a religious right to molest children? Would that be fine with you?

[ken_sylvania]

So is it working?

Compared to Anabaptists, are Catholics more free of sin and more "saved" because of the "sacrament of confession" or "confessional seal" Is that what you believe?

I respect the right of Catholics to practice their own religion, even if I don't agree with it. I do not personally believe in or practice the sacrament of confession and don't do anything that would involve a confessional seal.

In any event, none of this is about wiretapping the confessional or whatever far-fetched notions you are going on about. It is simply about expecting clergy who work with children to do the same as every other professional who works with children. Namely, to do their part to protect children from abuse by reporting it when it comes to their attention.

In other words, it's about the state dictating to a religious group how they should practice their religion, and expect them to change it in order to help the state conduct its own criminal investigations.

Did I get that right?

To the extent that their religious practice involves covering up for child molesters yes. Beyond that, no.

Would you be equally sanguine if a public school teacher claimed a religious right to molest children? Would that be fine with you?

Why don't you guys see if you can find something to agree on instead of this continual misrepresentation of each other's positions?

I'd be interested to see if Ken can articulate an example of a scenario where this law could actually cause an undesirable or harmful effect - and for JohnH to give us an example of a scenario where this law could potentially do some good.

[Ken]

I respect the right of Catholics to practice their own religion, even if I don't agree with it. I do not personally believe in or practice the sacrament of confession and don't do anything that would involve a confessional seal.



In other words, it's about the state dictating to a religious group how they should practice their religion, and expect them to change it in order to help the state conduct its own criminal investigations.

Did I get that right?

To the extent that their religious practice involves covering up for child molesters yes. Beyond that, no.

Would you be equally sanguine if a public school teacher claimed a religious right to molest children? Would that be fine with you?

Why don't you guys see if you can find something to agree on instead of this continual misrepresentation of each other's positions?

I'd be interested to see if Ken can articulate an example of a scenario where this law could actually cause an undesirable or harmful effect - and for JohnH to give us an example of a scenario where this law could potentially do some good.

Fine. I would like the Catholic Church to come forward and tell us what they CAN do to help combat child abuse. Especially child sexual abuse that they uncover within their ranks or that they become aware of through their teaching and ministry. We never seem to have that conversation. They are smart and creative people. What can they do and what are they willing to do and how are they going to do it? What are they going to do to take the lead in this area?

Instead of that conversation it is usually silence until they pop up to claim some exemption to a law that everyone else has no objection to following. Would we put up with public school teachers or administrators claiming a religious exemption to reporting child sex abuse? No we would absolutely not.

[ken_sylvania]

To the extent that their religious practice involves covering up for child molesters yes. Beyond that, no.

Would you be equally sanguine if a public school teacher claimed a religious right to molest children? Would that be fine with you?

Why don't you guys see if you can find something to agree on instead of this continual misrepresentation of each other's positions?

I'd be interested to see if Ken can articulate an example of a scenario where this law could actually cause an undesirable or harmful effect - and for JohnH to give us an example of a scenario where this law could potentially do some good.

Fine. I would like the Catholic Church to come forward and tell us what they CAN do to help combat child abuse. Especially child sexual abuse that they uncover within their ranks or that they become aware of through their teaching and ministry. We never seem to have that conversation. They are smart and creative people. What can they do and what are they willing to do and how are they going to do it. What are they going to do to take the lead in this area?

Instead of that conversation it is usually silence until they pop up to claim some exemption to a law that everyone else has no objection to following.

Silence like this?
https://www.vatican.va/content/francesc ... rnato.html