Public schools / sexual predators

[JohnH]

They are smart people. I'm sure the can figure it out the same as teachers and nurses.

They're smart enough that they'll be able to find out what was said or not said in a confessional booth?

Can you explain how that's going to happen without surveillance of confessions?

But one obvious approach if a child in Catholic school is telling a priest about how they are a victim of sexual abuse would be to stop the confession and pull them out of the confession box and say something to the effect of: "look, this is not your fault and you are not the one who is sinning here. But I am obligated to report what you are telling me. If this is something you want to talk to me about I am here to listen. If not, I can find someone else who can help you through this."

That should never happen during the sacrament of confession. They could say, "After confession, if you would like to talk to me about this more, I would be happy to listen and help you." And I suspect that kind of thing already goes on - priests often make the offer of non-confessional pastoral counseling available to people who ask for it during confessions; it's not the Sacrament of Advice or the Sacrament of Counseling.

Which is exactly what a teacher or school nurse is expected to say if a child comes to them with the same information. It isn't necessarily comfortable to tell a child "I have to report what you are telling me" but it is what you are required to do. Usually it is a cry for help and we are obligated to answer.

Presumably, teachers and school nurses aren't offering the sacrament of reconciliation.

Look, no matter how many excuses you make up that you think it should be so, the sacrament of reconciliation is not a place for priests to gather up information to turn over to the government. There are 4 esteemed martyrs who died to preserve the sanctity of the confessional seal; it is completely laughable that the State of Washington thinks they are somehow going to persuade priests to do what neither drowning nor the Republicans' firing squad in the Spanish Civil War could do.

But please go ahead and tell us how this law will be enforced, keeping in mind that a priest will not break the seal of confession and reveal what is said in the confessional booth.

[JayP]

Ken, respectfully you do what so many do. You see everything related to this conversation from the perspective that ANYTHING that in my POV stops child abuse is acceptable. No one is defending child abuse. I am commenting on a specific law. How can you say it does not explicitly mention clergy. It does.

I truly do not remotely understand what you or the law’s authors think it can possiblely do.
No priest is going to reveal what they heard in confession.
What do you seriously think happens differently (in reality) now that this is a law?

[Ken]

Honestly, you can take any list of the top novels ever written in the English language. There are lots of such lists, it doesn't matter which on you pick. Various literary and news organizations have compiled such lists. Here is one list that is a compilation of works that appear on at least three other such lists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E ... d_the_best

And then go through and find out how many contain sexual themes, or violence, or themes related to race and prejudice or injustice. And you will find that it is the majority. Expand the list to include plays and works of drama and the pattern continues. Shakespeare, Oscar Wilde, Arthur Miller, Sophocles, Tennessee Williams, George Bernard Shaw, Eugene O'Neal, etc.

What I see with attempts to censor school books around the country is that they are usually centered on sex, violence, racism/injustice or explicit language. Which are themes addressed by maybe 90% of the greatest works of literature in the English language.

Huckleberry Finn? Language and racism
To Kill a Mockingbird? Violence and racism
Shakespeare? Sex, violence, suicide, racism, LGBT themes, he hits them all
Heart of Darkness: Racism, violence, injustice, sexual perversion and exploitation
Great Gatsby? Sex, violence, and injustice
Pride and Prejudice? Sexism, gender roles, eroticism, etc.
Song of Solomon? Racism, violence, sexual themes

Of course all of those themes are riddled in the Bible, especially the Old Testament but also the New. Because they are all part of the human experience and part of what it means to be human and experience life in the world we live in. And if we are going to educate young people about the human experience and the world they are about to inherit, then hitting on themes that might make some people uncomfortable is going to be a part of that. It always has been and always will be, going all the way back to the Bronze Age.

Some parents seem to think they can insulate their children from learning about the good, bad, and ugly of the human experience and the world they are about to inherit. And maybe they can try by walling off the rest of the world and doing homeschooling, or becoming Amish and living in a completely insular and clannish community. But even that doesn't work. The world still creeps in, because it is not some outside external force. It is part of who every one of is us.

So what does that mean for public schools? Public schools are public institutions governed by democratically elected officials who follow democratically established laws. And they are staffed with teachers and administrators who also must do the same. And they are responsible to the entire community, not just one narrow segment of it. Which is as it should be. There frankly isn't any better way to run public schools than how we do it. We could do like Finland or China and make all public schools part of a national department of education with uniform governance across the entire country. But I don't think most Americans would want that. And so here we are.

In this country we actually have by far the most diverse array of educational opportunities of any country on the planet. There isn't even a close second. We also have some of the very best public and private schools on the planet and some of the worst. Wealthy parents from around the world clamor and go to great lengths and expense to enroll their children in American schools and universities because they know the good ones are the best on the planet.

And there is frankly no place on the planet where parents and students are provided so much choice: Traditional public schools, traditional private schools, magnet schools, charter schools, online schools, alternative private schools of every flavor, religious schools of every flavor, homeschooling, un-schooling, etc. etc. There is literally no place on earth that provides so much choice.

[R7ehr]

Ken, respectfully you do what so many do. You see everything related to this conversation from the perspective that ANYTHING that in my POV stops child abuse is acceptable. No one is defending child abuse. I am commenting on a specific law. How can you say it does not explicitly mention clergy. It does.

I truly do not remotely understand what you or the law’s authors think it can possiblely do.
No priest is going to reveal what they heard in confession.
What do you seriously think happens differently (in reality) now that this is a law?

Honestly, you can take any list of the top novels ever written in the English language. There are lots of such lists, it doesn't matter which on you pick. Various literary and news organizations have compiled such lists. Here is one list that is a compilation of works that appear on at least three other such lists: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E ... d_the_best

And then go through and find out how many contain sexual themes, or violence, or themes related to race and prejudice or injustice. And you will find that it is the majority. Expand the list to include plays and works of drama and the pattern continues. Shakespeare, Oscar Wilde, Arthur Miller, Sophocles, Tennessee Williams, George Bernard Shaw, Eugene O'Neal, etc.

What I see with attempts to censor school books around the country is that they are usually centered on sex, violence, racism/injustice or explicit language. Which are themes addressed by maybe 90% of the greatest works of literature in the English language.

Huckleberry Finn? Language and racism
To Kill a Mockingbird? Violence and racism
Shakespeare? Sex, violence, suicide, racism, LGBT themes, he hits them all
Heart of Darkness: Racism, violence, injustice, sexual perversion and exploitation
Great Gatsby? Sex, violence, and injustice
Pride and Prejudice? Sexism, gender roles, eroticism, etc.
Song of Solomon? Racism, violence, sexual themes

Of course all of those themes are riddled in the Bible, especially the Old Testament but also the New. Because they are all part of the human experience and part of what it means to be human and experience life in the world we live in. And if we are going to educate young people about the human experience and the world they are about to inherit, then hitting on themes that might make some people uncomfortable is going to be a part of that. It always has been and always will be, going all the way back to the Bronze Age.

Some parents seem to think they can insulate their children from learning about the good, bad, and ugly of the human experience and the world they are about to inherit. And maybe they can try by walling off the rest of the world and doing homeschooling, or becoming Amish and living in a completely insular and clannish community. But even that doesn't work. The world still creeps in, because it is not some outside external force. It is part of who every one of is us.

So what does that mean for public schools? Public schools are public institutions governed by democratically elected officials who follow democratically established laws. And they are staffed with teachers and administrators who also must do the same. And they are responsible to the entire community, not just one narrow segment of it. Which is as it should be. There frankly isn't any better way to run public schools than how we do it. We could do like Finland or China and make all public schools part of a national department of education with uniform governance across the entire country. But I don't think most Americans would want that. And so here we are.

In this country we actually have by far the most diverse array of educational opportunities of any country on the planet. There isn't even a close second. We also have some of the very best public and private schools on the planet and some of the worst. Wealthy parents from around the world clamor and go to great lengths and expense to enroll their children in American schools and universities because they know the good ones are the best on the planet.

And there is frankly no place on the planet where parents and students are provided so much choice: Traditional public schools, traditional private schools, magnet schools, charter schools, online schools, alternative private schools of every flavor, religious schools of every flavor, homeschooling, un-schooling, etc. etc. There is literally no place on earth that provides so much choice.

Does this answer your question JayP?

[Ken]

They are smart people. I'm sure the can figure it out the same as teachers and nurses.

They're smart enough that they'll be able to find out what was said or not said in a confessional booth?

Can you explain how that's going to happen without surveillance of confessions?

But one obvious approach if a child in Catholic school is telling a priest about how they are a victim of sexual abuse would be to stop the confession and pull them out of the confession box and say something to the effect of: "look, this is not your fault and you are not the one who is sinning here. But I am obligated to report what you are telling me. If this is something you want to talk to me about I am here to listen. If not, I can find someone else who can help you through this."

That should never happen during the sacrament of confession. They could say, "After confession, if you would like to talk to me about this more, I would be happy to listen and help you." And I suspect that kind of thing already goes on - priests often make the offer of non-confessional pastoral counseling available to people who ask for it during confessions; it's not the Sacrament of Advice or the Sacrament of Counseling.

Which is exactly what a teacher or school nurse is expected to say if a child comes to them with the same information. It isn't necessarily comfortable to tell a child "I have to report what you are telling me" but it is what you are required to do. Usually it is a cry for help and we are obligated to answer.

Presumably, teachers and school nurses aren't offering the sacrament of reconciliation.

Look, no matter how many excuses you make up that you think it should be so, the sacrament of reconciliation is not a place for priests to gather up information to turn over to the government. There are 4 esteemed martyrs who died to preserve the sanctity of the confessional seal; it is completely laughable that the State of Washington thinks they are somehow going to persuade priests to do what neither drowning nor the Republicans' firing squad in the Spanish Civil War could do.

But please go ahead and tell us how this law will be enforced, keeping in mind that a priest will not break the seal of confession and reveal what is said in the confessional booth.

So is it working?

Compared to Anabaptists, are Catholics more free of sin and more "saved" because of the "sacrament of confession" or "confessional seal" Is that what you believe?

In any event, none of this is about wiretapping the confessional or whatever far-fetched notions you are going on about. It is simply about expecting clergy who work with children to do the same as every other professional who works with children. Namely, to do their part to protect children from abuse by reporting it when it comes to their attention.

Will priests be prosecuted and jailed if they fail to do that? Most likely not. Teachers and nurses aren't generally prosecuted and jailed if they fail to report either. Maybe they face some sort of professional reprimand but that is about it. On rare occasions you do hear cases of teachers being prosecuted for failing to report child abuse but they are extremely unusual. For example, this was 2 months ago: https://www.news9.com/story/67ed7ead3ce ... -sex-abuse but these sorts of examples are pretty rare. And isn't this exactly what we want to happen? Isn't that what this thread is about? For teachers and the public schools to help stamp out sexual predators not cover up for them?

What will most likely happen next time (and there is ALWAYS a next time) is that the church will once again be faced with accusations of covering up child abuse and protecting sexual predators. And they will have to answer like everyone else for what they did or didn't do. One hopes that they will will be a positive force and not a negative one. I guess we shall see.

[Ken]

Does this answer your question JayP?

Well you are conflating two separate subjects here. Child abuse reporting requirements and censorship of school library materials and books used in public schools.

They are different topics. Is there something in specific that you disagree with in what I wrote? If so, what it it?

[ohio jones]

Does this answer your question JayP?

Well you are conflating two separate subjects here. Child abuse reporting requirements and censorship of school library materials and books used in public schools.

They are different topics.

Neither of which is on topic, if I'm reading the OP correctly.

Bunny trails is available.

[JohnH]

Edit: post moved

[Ken]

So is it working?

Compared to Anabaptists, are Catholics more free of sin and more "saved" because of the "sacrament of confession" or "confessional seal" Is that what you believe?

I respect the right of Catholics to practice their own religion, even if I don't agree with it. I do not personally believe in or practice the sacrament of confession and don't do anything that would involve a confessional seal.

In any event, none of this is about wiretapping the confessional or whatever far-fetched notions you are going on about. It is simply about expecting clergy who work with children to do the same as every other professional who works with children. Namely, to do their part to protect children from abuse by reporting it when it comes to their attention.

In other words, it's about the state dictating to a religious group how they should practice their religion, and expect them to change it in order to help the state conduct its own criminal investigations.

Did I get that right?

No, you didn't get it right.

This thread is actually about expecting public schools to stamp out sexual abuse and sexual predators in their midst. A part of that is requiring that all public school employees report abuse when it comes to their attention rather than covering it up. We all agree this is appropriate and what we expect from public schools do we not?

The Catholic Church is the second biggest educator of children in this country after the public schools and comes into contact with millions of additional children because it has set itself out as a trusted resource and source of guidance and protection for children. Just like many other denominations and faiths have done the same thing.

This is simply about expecting the Catholic church and every other denomination and faith that works with children to do the same thing as the public schools and do their part to help stamp out the abuse and sexual exploitation of children. It is only the Catholic Church that seems to want to abdicate this responsibility. I don't think people care how they do it as long as they do their part.

If a teacher or school administrator knows about a child who is being sexually abused and does nothing or covers it up, they can go to jail. This actually happens. Rarely, but it happens. And we generally approve of this outcome, do we not? Why do we have higher standards for public school teachers than priests?

[JohnH]

So is it working?

Compared to Anabaptists, are Catholics more free of sin and more "saved" because of the "sacrament of confession" or "confessional seal" Is that what you believe?

I respect the right of Catholics to practice their own religion, even if I don't agree with it. I do not personally believe in or practice the sacrament of confession and don't do anything that would involve a confessional seal.

In any event, none of this is about wiretapping the confessional or whatever far-fetched notions you are going on about. It is simply about expecting clergy who work with children to do the same as every other professional who works with children. Namely, to do their part to protect children from abuse by reporting it when it comes to their attention.

In other words, it's about the state dictating to a religious group how they should practice their religion, and expect them to change it in order to help the state conduct its own criminal investigations.

Did I get that right?

No, you didn't get it right.

This thread is actually about expecting public schools to stamp out sexual abuse and sexual predators in their midst. A part of that is requiring that all public school employees report abuse when it comes to their attention rather than covering it up. We all agree this is appropriate and what we expect from public schools do we not?

The Catholic Church is the second biggest educator of children in this country after the public schools and comes into contact with millions of additional children because it has set itself out as a trusted resource and source of guidance and protection for children. Just like many other denominations and faiths have done the same thing.

This is simply about expecting the Catholic church and every other denomination and faith that works with children to do the same thing as the public schools and do their part to help stamp out the abuse and sexual exploitation of children. It is only the Catholic Church that seems to want to abdicate this responsibility. I don't think people care how they do it as long as they do their part.

If a teacher or school administrator knows about a child who is being sexually abused and does nothing or covers it up, they can go to jail. This actually happens. Rarely, but it happens. And we generally approve of this outcome, do we not? Why do we have higher standards for public school teachers than priests?

Ken,

Can you make your comments about the Catholic church and confessions in the thread that's about that?

Thanks