Living with different views on voting

[Bootstrap]

I propose the following:
For everyone
* Embrace the opportunity for a spirited discussion.
* Discuss issues respectfully. Give the other person the benefit of the doubt
* Do not try to shut down others' opinions by a drumbeat of accusations that they are violating forum rules
* Welcome probing questions from others and assume they are asked in good faith. Respond to them respectfully
* If you never see any inconsistencies in your own position then you are probably not thinking very clearly. Welcome the opportunity to discuss inconsistencies. It's how you can learn.

For those who believe it is OK to vote
* Feel free to explain your position and the underlying rationale. You may convince someone on the merits of your argument
* You don't need to say who you voted for, but don't use the "privacy" of your vote as a way to weasel out of a tight spot in the argument. If you're ashamed of who you voted for just say so. You might find it takes the wind out of your opponent's sails.
* Don't demand that other people vote or that they vote for your preferred candidate
* It's OK to explain why you think a particular candidate is better than another, but discuss it rather than preach it. Even some who don't vote find it interesting to discuss the pros and cons of government policy and decisions

For those who believe it is not OK to vote
* Feel free to explain your position and the underlying rationale. You may convince someone on the merits of your argument
* It's OK to ask someone who they voted for and why, but if they decline to answer it would be respectful to not push the issue. It's not necessarily fair to hold someone's prior actions against them.
* Don't assume that someone who votes is doing so against their better judgment. Don't treat them as a pariah just because they vote.
* If your practice is to avoid voting because it constitutes engagement with the kingdom of this world, remember that even non-voters can find themselves ensnared in this world's issues. Be alert to avoid that trap.

Thanks, Ken, this is a great improvement.

[NedFlanders]

Those who are born again and can see and have entered the kingdom of God are ambassadors of His heavenly kingdom. Ambassadors aren't supposed to vote but represent another country.

I live with people with different views on voting - Sure. But agreeing with scripture I personally cannot accept a person who has no problem voting or even tries to justify or endorse it as being born again and can see the kingdom of God. In no way is that to pass judgement but a seen opportunity to pray and share the kingdom with them.

[Bootstrap]

Those who are born again and can see and have entered the kingdom of God are ambassadors of His heavenly kingdom. Ambassadors aren't supposed to vote but represent another country.

I assume we both imagine a modern ambassador when we read that. I don't know, for instance, if the word would stretch to people like Daniel, Moses, Nehemiah, and Esther, who interceded on behalf of their native Israel while working for foreign governments.

But let's take a modern ambassador. What does an ambassador do for a living? Influence other governments, no? Why would it be wrong for an ambassador to do so?

There are at least a few clear examples of ambassadors in the Bible. I think they did try to influence foreign governments.

Isaiah 18:

A prophecy concerning Cush

Ah, land of whirring wings
that is beyond the rivers of Cush,
which sends ambassadors by the sea,
in vessels of papyrus on the waters!
Go, you swift messengers,
to a nation tall and smooth,
to a people feared near and far,
a nation mighty and conquering,
whose land the rivers divide.

Ezekiel 17:

Then the word of the Lord came to me: “Say now to the rebellious house, Do you not know what these things mean? Tell them, behold, the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem, and took her king and her princes and brought them to him to Babylon. And he took one of the royal offspring and made a covenant with him, putting him under oath (the chief men of the land he had taken away), that the kingdom might be humble and not lift itself up, and keep his covenant that it might stand. But he rebelled against him by sending his ambassadors to Egypt, that they might give him horses and a large army. Will he thrive? Can one escape who does such things? Can he break the covenant and yet escape?

It would be interesting to research this further ... with both the Jewish and Roman context for ambassadors. What did this word invoke in Paul's audience?

[Bootstrap]

I live with people with different views on voting - Sure. But agreeing with scripture I personally cannot accept a person who has no problem voting or even tries to justify or endorse it as being born again and can see the kingdom of God. In no way is that to pass judgement but a seen opportunity to pray and share the kingdom with them.

When you decide that someone is not saved, that's not a judgment?

To me, this is something that Scripture does not speak clearly to, and when we look at what Scripture does teach, ambassadors do try to influence foreign governments, Paul did invoke his Roman citizenship to promote the Kingdom, the apostles in Acts interceded with authorities to defend their right to spread the Gospel.

Is there any place that Scripture speaks to this directly? If not, how does this become a salvation issue that you are called to judge, rather than a "disputable matter"?

[JayP]

I am hornswangled by some of the attitudes posted on this subject. How can anyone say voting is wrong?

No, please follow my statements carefully. Your religious, social understanding, traditions or person beliefs may lead you to NOT vote
I am fine with that. But no reasonable person can say voting is wrong. You can properly say it is not for you, or your group. Understand that difference.

FWIIW, I have not voted when I was a member of a conservative Menno church. As a Catholic I sometimes do, and sometimes have not.

How can anyone possibly think they have a right, or authority, or even the reasoning to tell someone else how to think on this issue?

Again, I am not all worked up that I know THE. Right issue. Simply that anyone else thinks they can or should de others on the topic.

[Josh]

Because the Bible and Jesus are what tell us what is right or wrong, and now all are called to repent and obey the gospel.

[Neto]

I feel uncomfortable when someone "urges me to vote", because I don't believe I should, and I don't like to tell them so, because it causes conflict, and I don't like conflict.

However, the Scripture tells us to "urge one another to love and good works", and those people who think I should vote appear to think it is a 'good work'. So I have a conflict within myself, because I'd also like to urge them NOT to vote, because I think that being separated from these affairs of the world is 'a good work'.

Some people who are very close to me feel that if the candidate they want me to vote for is not elected, that it is my fault. (And often my private impression is that that candidate is the one who most reflects my own values, Sometimes this other person knows what I think, and so feel even more strongly that I am to blame if what they consider "our" candidate of choice looses. So I must acknowledge that I sometimes have ideals which may not be what God wants.)

So what does respect look like when you believe that the other person is holding to wrong thinking, and is thus doing wrong? Is it actually best to just not interact on these subjects? The Scripture tells us that if we see a brother or sister do wrong, and do not warn him or her, that while they are still responsible for their sin, we are also held responsible in some way. So I tend to think here that it is best to continue asking probing questions of one another. We may well all never agree, but everyone becomes informed of the opposite view, and becomes fully responsible for their own actions - We have each done our part, fulfilled our responsibility before God. The only other option I see is to conclude that "It is a matter of individual conscience". But not every difference can be settled in this way, or we end up not fulfilling the command of God, to "urge one another on to love and good works".

(Kinda' talking in circles here, so I'll let it go at that.)

[Sudsy]

My view on what could be improved on is more about how we go about treating one another when we disagree. Can I make a post that I believe in my heart is reflecting the fruit of the Holy Spirit working in my life ? Especially when I have strong convictions in what I believe.

My flesh (and we all have our own battles with it) may be one that is ready to battle over all kinds of beliefs and practises and we can be ruled by the flesh in any of our responses if we allow it to.

Regarding how I post I am reminded of characteristics of Holy Spirit fruit such as gentleness, love, peace, longsuffering, kindness, self-control and are these what is evident in the post I am about to make.

Or is my post more a work of the flesh which the scripture says are 'obvious' Gal 5:19-21. For instance, a lack of self control, hostile, anger, selfish ambition, looking for a fight, and others that may apply ?

I believe if I am operating under the Holy Spirit's control and not my flesh or even perhaps the voice of the enemy, satan, I will be able to share my convictions with other believers, such as voting, and these will either pass the test of being Spirit guided or not. And I may need being reminded of this (and I think a PM might be a good place for this) by another believer.

So, I think words matter and do reflect what is my heart relationship with God. I know there are posts I have made that I would like to reword and possibly not even make when I consider the how in my responses. I believe if my posts are not reflecting the fruit of the Spirit but rather an act of the flesh, then I might influence others to do likewise. And the opposite can be true also.

Regarding voting I initally gave my personal conviction but I would word it differently with this in mind and believe to vote or not is an area of personal conviction. I believe the Holy Spirit is my guide and if I am unsure on what to do about anything, I can seek His guidance.

Well, you may disagree and if so, I would be interested to know where you believe this is incorrect.

[Bootstrap]

I feel uncomfortable when someone "urges me to vote", because I don't believe I should, and I don't like to tell them so, because it causes conflict, and I don't like conflict.

As far as I can tell, nobody on MN has urged others to vote. And I think the vast majority of us agree that we should not urge someone to vote for a specific candidate.

That's really, really important. Here's something I don't get: when I or others say we think the Bible does not specifically speak to this and it is a question of different applications we make, some people keep hearing that we are urging them to vote. We're not. Why is this misperception so persistent?

The two positions I see, with a few variations, are:

1. The Bible prohibits voting
1.a. ... and it's idolatry
1.b. ... and if someone votes, they are not a believer
1.c. ... and it's a clear command that should be obvious to anyone who wants to follow Scripture

versus

2. The Bible does not specifically speak to voting at all, whether to vote is a matter of conscience
1.a. ... and ambassadors actually do try to influence governments of other kingdoms
1.b. ... and Paul invoked his citizenship three times

There's a whole thread exploring the biblical basis for this and other topics here:

The Kingdom of God and other loyalties

This thread is not about that, it's about how we talk with each other across divisions like this one. Can Christians act as brothers across these two positions? How do we best do that?

[Bootstrap]

Because the Bible and Jesus are what tell us what is right or wrong, and now all are called to repent and obey the gospel.

Perhaps you should show where the Bible says "don't vote in elections" in the following thread:

The Kingdom of God and other loyalties

That thread is specifically about the biblical basis for our positions. Is it really a biblical command, or is it like the rules the Pharisees added to the Bible, giving their rules the same authority as Scripture? That's exactly what we are exploring here:

The Kingdom of God and other loyalties