Who speaks for the black community?

[Robert]

Really, this ugly name-calling just needs to stop. JBG is no Marxist. He is not supporting Marxism. And neither are most black people who protest against police brutality and racism. Or the white people who are protesting with them.

Her is an adult and can speak for himself. Not sure why you got in the middle. They were doing fine.

[joshuabgood]

... the plain church ... is 90% white ethnic enclaves is problematic ....

As a person with "pioneer missionary" experience, I am somewhat trouble by this statement. Certainly in the case of any group or congregation that is seeking to reach out-group persons, I can identify with this idea, but since people tend to gravitate to their own culture group for modes of religious expression, one might expect a rather monolithic culture (such as that which I have at any rate witnessed in the Swiss Brethren - Beachy-background congregation to which we belong here in Holmes County, Ohio) to be gaining new members all most entirely from their own culture group. To what extent is the "plain church" a part of the dominant culture in their particular geographical settings? Here in Holmes County the Amish - Mennonite-of-Amish-Heritage culture is in some sense the dominant culture. In many places of business here you could achieve all of your shopping needs without speaking a single word of "normal English". (It is, however, becoming less so. I know some Amish families whose children speak English as a first language, and according to the parents, do not speak "P German" well.)

But I was thinking primarily in terms of our experiences with the Banawa people in Brazil. 'Outsiders' from the near-by (up to several hours or more in a canoe and then on a trail, depending on the season) sometimes visited the village, and then the services were adapted somewhat to their presence, partly in Portuguese, but still predominantly in Banawa. The church there is 100% Banawa. I know many tribal villages that are like this. I have also been involved in Indian Training Workshops where half a dozen or more languages were represented, and then of course the language was Portuguese, everyone's second (or third, etc) language. A larger tribe near the Banawa (about 10 days travel by canoe) (as well as the Banawa themselves) have a keen interest in an uncontacted tribe (which is in the same language family), to take the Gospel to them. But none of these Christians would expect new Christians of this other tribe to be integrated into their own congregations.

So I'm not really disagreeing, it's just a hesitation in thinking that way (that it is a 'problem' that the 'plain church' tends to be culturally monolithic). Maybe the Apostle Paul is simply a poor example, but even while he sought to "be all things to all people", he remained a Jew, with Jewish practices and cultural behaviors. But regardless of his cultural & linguistic blunders, he had this thing right - he emphasized the training and choosing of men of each cultural group where he & his team traveled with the Gospel - men to take leadership in those places, in their own cultural settings. To some degree, I see the desire to 'absorb' people of other cultural groups into our own congregations as itself problematic, IF in the process these persons are then discouraged from finding their own cultural expression of faith & worship. (I'm not talking necessarily about a purposeful intent to do this, but does the process force THEM to adapt to some sort of half-way, meet-in-the-middle Christian experience, instead of a full-out in-group expression of their faith?)

Neto - I think I could live with what you propose. It has crossed my mind at times. Why...because I sometimes wonder if people of color will ever feel at home or comfortable in a CA church. The cultural differences at times just seem too entrenched and the interest/motivation in bringing integration is perhaps just not strong enough.

I could live with that if the CA church were to adopt the "order" mentality that Ernie proposed awhile ago considering how churches might see themselves. And if CA churches would make specific attempts to reach out to churches of color to do things together intentionally...like partnering say for VBS. Or inviting their choir/worship team over to our churches on occasion. Or sharing pulpits. Or working together in parachurch organizations. Or reaching out during incidents like what just happened Ahmaud, George, and Breonna...to partner together to support their communities. Take communion together on occasion or invite them to a footwashing ceremony, etc.

That said, in my ideal world, full integration is the "holy grail"...

[Wade]

Really, this ugly name-calling just needs to stop. JBG is no Marxist. He is not supporting Marxism. And neither are most black people who protest against police brutality and racism. Or the white people who are protesting with them.

Her is an adult and can speak for himself. Not sure why you got in the middle. They were doing fine.

Her?... I really need to grow my beard back...

There are troubling continued tactics deployed to silence people. Accuse them of name calling and misrepresent them. I gave evidence for JBG himself giving support to BLM which holds to Marxist ideals - warning someone that they are supporting Marxism is not calling them a Marxist.
These tactics remind me of the mindset to the BLM leader in New York who when was confronted about calling for a burning down of the USA attacks the person asking and accused the reporter of not understanding if what he said was figurative or literal - but then goes on not to answer whether he was or not... JBG uses similar excuses in other threads talking negatively and even falsely about people but then claims it is only cultural and gives himself permission to misrepresent a bunch of people.
Notice how he was preaching the CA's are 99% white and now he changes it to 90% without explanation or reason. Is he just throwing out numbers to get peoples attention or satisfy his leanings that distract away from Christ?

[joshuabgood]

Really, this ugly name-calling just needs to stop. JBG is no Marxist. He is not supporting Marxism. And neither are most black people who protest against police brutality and racism. Or the white people who are protesting with them.

Her is an adult and can speak for himself. Not sure why you got in the middle. They were doing fine.

Her?... I really need to grow my beard back...

There are troubling continued tactics deployed to silence people. Accuse them of name calling and misrepresent them. I gave evidence for JBG himself giving support to BLM which holds to Marxist ideals - warning someone that they are supporting Marxism is not call them a Marxist.
These tactics remind me of the mindset to the BLM leader in New York who when was confronted about calling for a burning down of the USA attacks the person asking and accused the reporter of not understanding if what he said was figurative or literal - but then goes on not to answer whether he was or not... JBG uses similar excuses in other threads talking negatively and even falsely about people but then claims it is only cultural and gives himself permission to misrepresent a bunch of people.
Notice how he was preaching the CA's in our context are 99% white and now he changes it to 90% without explanation or reason. Is he just throwing out numbers to get peoples attention or satisfy his leanings that distract away from Christ?

Wade - for the record. I support black lives matter as a hashtag or civil protest sign. I have been consistent on that. I didn't realize the poll was intended exclusively to refer only to the BLM the formal organization and a demonstration only specific to them. (Frankly, it wasn't that clear in the poll.)

Please see my comment in the other thread. But speaking to larger cultural/social systems or patterns is not talking negatively about individual people. I don't know you or most of the other people on this forum. I would never render condemnation or heart judgments about you. If somebody writes something on this forum I think is racist, I will call it out. I did that earlier. But discussing the CA culture as a whole is no more individually condemning than is discussing American culture. I don't understand the personal defensiveness. Sociology and history study cultures and people and talk at a macro level about underlying systems and trends.

Lastly, the numbers 90 or 99 aren't the point. The point is that every honest person knows CA's in our context are vastly white ethnic enclaves. That needs to be discussed. That shouldn't be a problem to name that and discuss it. If that is a problem to state the obvious the psychology behind what drives that defensiveness needs to be honestly explored.

[Wade]

Her is an adult and can speak for himself. Not sure why you got in the middle. They were doing fine.

Her?... I really need to grow my beard back...

There are troubling continued tactics deployed to silence people. Accuse them of name calling and misrepresent them. I gave evidence for JBG himself giving support to BLM which holds to Marxist ideals - warning someone that they are supporting Marxism is not call them a Marxist.
These tactics remind me of the mindset to the BLM leader in New York who when was confronted about calling for a burning down of the USA attacks the person asking and accused the reporter of not understanding if what he said was figurative or literal - but then goes on not to answer whether he was or not... JBG uses similar excuses in other threads talking negatively and even falsely about people but then claims it is only cultural and gives himself permission to misrepresent a bunch of people.
Notice how he was preaching the CA's in our context are 99% white and now he changes it to 90% without explanation or reason. Is he just throwing out numbers to get peoples attention or satisfy his leanings that distract away from Christ?

Wade - for the record. I support black lives matter as a hashtag or civil protest sign. I have been consistent on that. I didn't realize the poll was intended exclusively to refer only to the BLM the formal organization and a demonstration only specific to them. (Frankly, it wasn't that clear in the poll so I think accusation of duplicity is pretty weak).

And I would have let it go after you clarified yourself. It was an honest mistake even though it caused much misrepresentation of yourself but rather someone else jumped in and wouldn't let it go but rather accused me of being unloving for pointing out that I trusted what you wrote.

Please see my comment in the other thread. But speaking to larger cultural/social systems or patterns is not talking negatively about individual people. I don't know you or most of the other people on this forum. I would never render condemnation or heart judgments about you. If somebody writes something on this forum I think is racist, I will call it out. I did that earlier. But discussing the CA culture as a whole is no more individually condemning than is discussing American culture. I don't understand the personal defensiveness. Sociology and history study cultures and people and talk at a macro level about underlying systems and trends.

I read what you said.
Saying that people need to work extra so they can something other than a starter home and have a cabin is not flattering to say the least when we read the bible and what Jesus calls us to - call it what you want - that is negative.

Lastly, the numbers 90 or 99 aren't the point. The point is that every honest person knows CA's are vastly white ethnic enclaves. That needs to be discussed. That shouldn't be a problem to name that and discuss it. If that is a problem to state the obvious the psychology behind what drives that defensiveness needs to be honestly explored.

That is quite a judgement call that "every honest person knows CA's are vastly white enclaves." I don't see whether your statement is true or not is even helpful? - so why say it? It just so happens the directory for the church I attend has over 10% of family last names that are Philippine - as far as I can tell. Since I live in BC in an area where the black population is very low I don't think it is fair to base your labels when we consider the whole. Maybe it is different from where you are? - so share about that instead of the whole of CA's. I know of a enough CA's that have adopted children that are of different skin colour to think it is unfair to cast such untrue comments that are harmful to those churches and CA families that really do reach out and care for all the human race. They don't need to prove it to you. And since was an atheist until 26 and I am not a member of any church and am defending others outside my culture that are being accused wrongly maybe we are alike in how you think you need to defend people of colour?!

Please just stop spreading made up "facts" and please share from what you have actually seen without labelling it as culturally CA since you are Protestant anyway. A toad that calls himself a rose is still a toad.
If you want to paint CA's so negatively but then say you are not talking about everybody but rather people you know and mention people like barnhart and AnthonyMartin - are you saying I should believe you are only talking negatively about them? Do you see how you keep going in circles?

[joshuabgood]

And I would have let it go after you clarified yourself. It was an honest mistake even though it caused much misrepresentation of yourself...

Thanks.

Saying that people need to work extra so they can something other than a starter home and have a cabin is not flattering to say the least when we read the bible and what Jesus calls us to - call it what you want - that is negative.

I hear what you are saying...but I can tell you in this cultural context, rather than being seen as you see it, it is often seen as the Lord blessing you. Again I am not making a judgment just describing what is often the case. I only brought this up to point out that cultural values around how much one should work are different. What is perceived as lazy in Lancaster PA may be perceived differently in Campbell County VA. That is all.

That is quite a judgement call that "every honest person knows CA's are vastly white enclaves."

Fair enough...I'll clarify it. In our context, that is the North American experience, they are vastly as I described them. If one attends CA events one can see that for themselves. It is really self-evident. There are of course pockets here and there that present exceptions, I belonged to a church once that approached a 50-50 split, but that is the exception. (If you google images for conservative Mennonite for instance it becomes clear.)

since you are Protestant anyway

I am not sure where this came from. I am not Protestant. Never have been...and I have spent significant time working against Protestant influence. I was born Eastern, grew up basically South-Eastern, then a short Midwest stint, then BMA. Still BMA...

[Wade]

And I would have let it go after you clarified yourself. It was an honest mistake even though it caused much misrepresentation of yourself...

Thanks.

Saying that people need to work extra so they can something other than a starter home and have a cabin is not flattering to say the least when we read the bible and what Jesus calls us to - call it what you want - that is negative.

I hear what you are saying...but I can tell you in this cultural context, rather than being seen as you see it, it is often seen as the Lord blessing you. Again I am not making a judgment just describing what is often the case. I only brought this up to point out that cultural values around how much one should work are different. What is perceived as lazy in Lancaster PA may be perceived differently in Campbell County VA. That is all.

That is quite a judgement call that "every honest person knows CA's are vastly white enclaves."

Fair enough...I'll clarify it. In our context, that is the North American experience, they are vastly as I described them. If one attends CA events one can see that for themselves. It is really self-evident. There are of course pockets here and there that present exceptions, I belonged to a church once that approached a 50-50 split, but that is the exception. (If you google images for conservative Mennonite for instance it becomes clear.)

since you are Protestant anyway

I am not sure where this came from. I am not Protestant. Never have been...and I have spent significant time working against Protestant influence. I was born Eastern, grew up basically South-Eastern, then a short Midwest stint, then BMA. Still BMA...

We've talked about this before. Someone who identifies as or more so calls themselves a Conservative Anabaptist better have a little bit of way of life that represents those original Anabaptists. The Mennonites I know personally seem to be humble enough I don't ever hear themselves call themselves Anabaptists. And when they do talk about the Anabaptists they don't associated them with themselves as they respect the serious calling of Christ that many of those martyrs took - I only see the CA name mentioned here on Mennonet. And yet these ones I know are much more conservative in the sense of taking the serious call of denying self, forsaking the things of this world in follow Christ - so what you have presented as BMA really discourages me from being able to in honesty call you CA or call BMA CA. That is done out of respect of the Anabaptists and for the sake of honesty for you and everyone else - not as a disrespectful thing but for truthful accuracy.

[Wade]

Her is an adult and can speak for himself. Not sure why you got in the middle. They were doing fine.

Her?... I really need to grow my beard back...

There are troubling continued tactics deployed to silence people. Accuse them of name calling and misrepresent them. I gave evidence for JBG himself giving support to BLM which holds to Marxist ideals - warning someone that they are supporting Marxism is not call them a Marxist.
These tactics remind me of the mindset to the BLM leader in New York who when was confronted about calling for a burning down of the USA attacks the person asking and accused the reporter of not understanding if what he said was figurative or literal - but then goes on not to answer whether he was or not... JBG uses similar excuses in other threads talking negatively and even falsely about people but then claims it is only cultural and gives himself permission to misrepresent a bunch of people.
Notice how he was preaching the CA's in our context are 99% white and now he changes it to 90% without explanation or reason. Is he just throwing out numbers to get peoples attention or satisfy his leanings that distract away from Christ?

Wade - for the record. I support black lives matter as a hashtag or civil protest sign. I have been consistent on that. I didn't realize the poll was intended exclusively to refer only to the BLM the formal organization and a demonstration only specific to them. (Frankly, it wasn't that clear in the poll.)

Please see my comment in the other thread. But speaking to larger cultural/social systems or patterns is not talking negatively about individual people. I don't know you or most of the other people on this forum. I would never render condemnation or heart judgments about you. If somebody writes something on this forum I think is racist, I will call it out. I did that earlier. But discussing the CA culture as a whole is no more individually condemning than is discussing American culture. I don't understand the personal defensiveness. Sociology and history study cultures and people and talk at a macro level about underlying systems and trends.

Lastly, the numbers 90 or 99 aren't the point. The point is that every honest person knows CA's in our context are vastly white ethnic enclaves. That needs to be discussed. That shouldn't be a problem to name that and discuss it. If that is a problem to state the obvious the psychology behind what drives that defensiveness needs to be honestly explored.

The Philippine churches in the church directory I speak of are over 90% Philippine people. Looks like Philippine ethnic enclaves - those CA's are at it again!

[joshuabgood]

I only see the CA name mentioned here on Mennonet.

This term is a newer umbrella term, that I first heard through Faith Builders Ed Programs. It is intended to catch a family of folks that practically apply things like the prayer veiling. It would include conservative Menno's, conservative Church of the Brethren, unaffiliated new groups like White Oak Church, Charity/esque groups that end in "Christian Fellowship," Beachy Amish, Dunkard Bretheren, River Brethren, German Baptist, etc.

The Philippine churches in the church directory I speak of are over 90% Philippine people. Looks like Philippine ethnic enclaves - those CA's are at it again!

The point I was speaking to was the CA's circles in our North American context.

[Josh]

It’s interesting to watch an ethnic Anabaptist (Josh G.) lecture two outsiders (myself and Wade).

Why...because I sometimes wonder if people of color will ever feel at home or comfortable in a CA church.

Realistically, the barriers to outsiders of any race are much more significant than barriers to people of colour vs people of no colour. If you know enough outsiders (people like myself tend to find each other) then you’d know the mix tends to reflect the local demographics.

The Holdemans and Pilgrim/Hope both have small churches in NYC. The incoming members tend to reflect the local demographics. Most those members eventually migrate to more rural communities because life is better for them there.