George Floyd

[silentreader]

We are weeding corn right now.

Weeding or de-weeding?

Were the weeds escalating?

Were you being discriminatory?

[Wade]

We are weeding corn right now.

Weeding or de-weeding?

Were the weeds escalating?

Were you being discriminatory?

A couple weeks ago I gave my 5 year old about a 2lb bag of corn kernels to plant. After some direction, turning away to plant beans, and a few minutes he is standing behind me saying he is out of corn... I turn to look and he managed to plant it all in about 6 feet... I am weeding today too and where he planted there is no "weeds" only CORN to weed!

[RZehr]

We are weeding corn right now.

Weeding or de-weeding?

Were the weeds escalating?

Were you being discriminatory?

We were working discriminately to de-escalate the escalating weeds and de-weed the corn so the corn could escalate.

[Joy]

He was weeding some vewwy good books on gween fwagility.

[appleman2006]

Looks like I have a little bit of side work to catch up on here.

For what it is worth I have been reading his essays. I have only met Keeshon once. So I do not claim to know him well at all. But I would love to get to know him better. I hear his hurt and his frustration. And I will be the first to admit that I cannot fully understand. But even so I do want the very best for him.
I hesitate to say this next part because I accept that I have many blind spots and I as said before I do not know his situation fully.

But if he were my son this is the advice I would give him if he were asking me for it. I would strongly encourage him to move out of the city environment he is in. At least for 5 to 10 years. And I know the answer would probably be, but what if all the good guys move out? What happens then?
My fear for him is that if he tries to reform from within as he is obviously trying to do now that he will be caught up in the worst elements of the BLM movement rather than having those in that movement caught up in the ways of Christ...

Appleman, how would it feel if I said in all sincerity that Appleman is so closely tied to the conservative culture that nurtures radical movements like Alt-right, to escape these elements he should move into an urban environment for five or ten years. If he continues his struggle to live a righteous life where he is, he will be caught up in the worst elements of the hard right rather than helping people in those movements escape.

I would say to Barnhart to be less offended and to step back and listen. Appleman by his actions as well as words has exhibited one the best balanced approaches of man I’ve encountered in my 86 years of life. I consider him a man of well earned wisdom.

Appleman’s point is that our perceptions are impacted by where we live and who our friends are. This is supported by the Bible in many verses. I would start by recommending the reading of Proverbs and then on to the New Testament. The Bible is not anachronistic: it’s a book of Wisdom that enlightens us regarding our human nature which has not changed in more than ten thousand years. It is the Word of God that informs both Appleman’s and my perspective. As such it is the single most instructional book we can read regarding any topic on human psychology and behaviors.

First of all thanks Max for your vote of confidence. It may be a bit over the top as I do not feel real wise most days but I appreciate the sentiment and the fact that you had my back in this case.

[appleman2006]

Appleman by his actions as well as words has exhibited one the best balanced approaches of man I’ve encountered in my 86 years of life. I consider him a man of well earned wisdom.

And he is a cutie too.

As to this remark Robert. seriously????? How am I ever supposed to live that down now.

[appleman2006]

MaxPC, I'm not offended by Appleman, quite the opposite. Notice my post is hypothetical, there is a "if" at the beginning. Appleman and I have a long history of "helping each other think" which looks a lot like arguing. There are people on this forum who do not want my input and are happier without my ideas, so I try to respect them and stay away. Appleman is not one of those, in my judgement he likes to be challenged and handles it well. I share your respect for him, otherwise I would have stayed silent.

As to this remark. Thank you Barnhart. I really do take this as a compliment from you whether it was meant that way or not. You read me correctly in that I like to be challenged. And I am especially pleased that someone like you who probably challenges me as much as anyone on here recognises that in me. I am almost certainly your inferior in both intellect and in education and so the fact that you consider me worth the time to challenge is the ultimate compliment. It may surprise some that Barnhart and I have never met at least to my knowledge but were we too meet even though we disagree on various things I have no doubt we could talk for hours and our conversation would be full of respect and we would both come away richer for it.

[appleman2006]

Barnhart wrote:
"Appleman, how would it feel if I said in all sincerity that Appleman is so closely tied to the conservative culture that nurtures radical movements like Alt-right, to escape these elements he should move into an urban environment for five or ten years. If he continues his struggle to live a righteous life where he is, he will be caught up in the worst elements of the hard right rather than helping people in those movements escape."

And now to address this actual statement and to explain why it is a bit of a red herring IMO.

If that were actually the case and that was the environment I live and move in you may well have a case to make. First remember I live in Canada. Not exactly a hot bed of the alt right. In fact many of the people I work and associate with are pretty far on the left.
I recognise the following facts are anecdotal in nature but I give them just to make the case that I do not exactly live and work in the sticks. First I live within a mile of a community which is a tri city with a gross population of over half a million people. It is extremely multicultural in nature. My work has literally kept me in touch with that community day in and day out for the last 40 years. For a time I sat on two different boards that each had one active gay member as part of it. One of them was the President for a while. I still sit on one of those boards and the extremely talented executive director of that organization is a black lady. The president of the organization is Lebanese, not that that matters.
I simply state this to suggest that any ideas I have are not from simply sitting in a vacuum and hearing only one side of any matter.
My comment in regards to what I would advise Keeshon if he was my son was made very TIC in that it is obvious he is not my son which means I do not have nearly enough information to give him that advice definitively. There are obviously a whole bunch of questions I would need to ask as well as I would need to get to know Keeshon much better in order to actually give him advice like that.
But there is still a reason why I said what I did. So leaving Keeshon out of the equation, right now. If I had a black son or a white one for that matter I would almost certainly be advising him to stay away from any organization like BLM or Antifa right now. I do not think the message or the attitudes of these organizations presently are at all conducive to the building up of any young Christian man's life. Black lives matter. I totally agree with that. If I did not believe that I would not be taking the time to even engage in this topic. But that organization is so wrong in it's approach it is hardly worth arguing about.
Some people have been critical of some of us quoting those in the black community and saying you are simply picking those you agree with. Let me be totally clear. I do try to listen to all sides of the debate but then I listen more to those that I actually think make the best argument. Take the PragerU interview that was shown on here somewhere, a few day back. While I do not identify at all with that person's stated importance of being politically involved, his attitude of love and respect even for those he strongly disagrees with came through loud and clear. It fits in with the way I see Jesus doing things much closer than the angry violent black activist I see represented on the street these days.
I identify with men like Ben Carson who more or less gave up his good name because he cared so much for his community and what was happening to it. Now if any black young man needs a good role model, Ben strikes me as being that.
I identify with black leaders who admit to the low value that is put on marriage in their culture. I identify with those that talk about the lack of father figures. I identify with those that are angry at the fact that the abortion industry appears to have targeted their culture. All of these of course are not issues related only to the black community. They are a problem of mankind period but for what ever reason, very possibly historic ones, they are especially deep rooted in those communities.
Historically they have been victims. There is no doubt about that. But it is my observation that dwelling on that victim culture no matter how tempting it may be will not ever help the situation. Again that is not a cultural thing. That is a human problem.
Recently I was at a meeting where an indigenous leader was the keynote speaker. He was speaking on the primary cultural issue here in Canada which is how to best deal with some of the cultural abuses that have been heaped on our indigenous peoples here in Canada over the years and how to best correct that.
This man was as proud of who he was and of his heritage as anyone. But he acknowledged that what we are trying to do in getting more indiginous gainfully employed is very very hard. And while he did not say so exactly he very clearly implied that the best way would be if people got off the reserves and actually started to intermingle with society. He acknowledged that his message was not very politically correct and that he is hated by many of his own people for it but he did not back down and gave his own tribe as proof of the fact that amalgamating and getting out from under strong government support was actually the best way to take care of the generations of neglect and abuse.

Here is a fact. Ultimately we are all created by God. We are all of the same race in the end. And one thing I have noticed as I have work with many different nationalities over the years is that the environment one is raised in has far far more effect on one's personal character than his ethnicity. In many ways we are like water and we take the easiest route down hill, all things being equal. And it is in that sense that I am colour blind. While I understand that history and one's past plays into how a person reacts I never assume that a person will act that way simply based on my first impression. To do so, is I believe racist at it's core.

I hope that clears up a little where I am coming from. And I promise I will continue to listen to all.

[ken_sylvania]

The practical value I hope to bring, is opening up people's minds to the systemic social issues and then by extension to our very own circles in the CA world. Simply, it is not an accident that 99% of CA churches are white. And it isn't because we are holier or more dedicated Christians. The hard truth is, that very few people from minority communities will ever feel at home in social settings where we prefer our ethnocentric, dare I say "white," way of doing things. Maybe this is insurmountable socially and birds of a feather flock together...I am somewhat open to that, though with regret in my heart that that is the case. Still even if it is, if our hearts were more open we could reach out and at least do some intentional things with our brothers and sisters, in their churches, to let them know we are in the same kingdom. We value them and their unique experiences in the American culture.

I wonder if you could explain the underlined statement a bit. To me, it appears to say that CA churches and church policy is deliberately designed with an eye toward maintaining whiteness. I doubt that is what you mean to say, so could you elaborate?

[joshuabgood]

The practical value I hope to bring, is opening up people's minds to the systemic social issues and then by extension to our very own circles in the CA world. Simply, it is not an accident that 99% of CA churches are white. And it isn't because we are holier or more dedicated Christians. The hard truth is, that very few people from minority communities will ever feel at home in social settings where we prefer our ethnocentric, dare I say "white," way of doing things. Maybe this is insurmountable socially and birds of a feather flock together...I am somewhat open to that, though with regret in my heart that that is the case. Still even if it is, if our hearts were more open we could reach out and at least do some intentional things with our brothers and sisters, in their churches, to let them know we are in the same kingdom. We value them and their unique experiences in the American culture.

I wonder if you could explain the underlined statement a bit. To me, it appears to say that CA churches and church policy is deliberately designed with an eye toward maintaining whiteness. I doubt that is what you mean to say, so could you elaborate?

Sure. Thanks for asking. I am not saying it is intentionally malicious, or intentionally racist. What needs to be acknowledged though, and explored, is why this is the case. And to honestly realize that the structures of the institutions are in fact what produces what is produced. Why are our CA churches white ethnic enclaves? When I asked this question...as a young man, I was informed, in essence, we are holier/better/more willing to follow Jesus than other people. I always thought it was amazing how the desire to follow Jesus had such a strong correlation to white ethnic Mennonites.

Now at 43, having lived some (though not as much as may others), I am doubtful that we are holier/better than other folks. I'd like for our people to have a serious soul searching discussion about why this is the way it is? What are the underlying assumptions, beliefs, cultural practices, power structures, et al that have relegated our churches to being white ethnic enclaves? How about putting together some committees, populated by the small percentage of folks that don't fit what I described, and see if we can get some answers at a macro scale? And then work to reform "the system?"

That is what I'd like to see =).