Who speaks for the black community?

[Josh]

Sure. I have never been a strong proponent of coerced socialism. The closest I ever came to voting for someone was Ron Paul, that should clear that up. (I didn't seriously consider it...I also was sympathetic to Dennis Kucinich for the sheer tenacity around foreign policy). I would add, I am much more bothered by corporate welfare and bailouts, ag subsidies, etc, than I am by direct relief. And wars and war profiteering...which has been much more harmful also. And the permanent garrison state...

Lastly, though I am not a proponent of coerced socialism, I am not convinced that played the significant role in the challenges faced by the
Black community.

Do you have a good explanation for how the black family had a lower illegitimacy rate in the 1950s than white people, yet today it is 79%?

Would you mind please citing this evidence. And then showing how you have determined that that trend is in fact causally related to receiving aide from the government? Thx.

The black family and community in general was in excellent shape in the 1950s despite de jure racism and segregation. Things like neighbourhoods with prosperous black owned businesses, community and civic organisations, strong churches, high marriage rates and low illegitimacy rates.

After a few decades of the welfare state, things are in shambles. Do you disagree? The illegitimacy rate is 79%. Do you disagree that that’s a big problem?

[Josh]

One thing is for sure: nobody on MN speaks on behalf of the black community. I’m probably the most qualified here simply because of my ancestry, if we want to start discussing our 23andme profiles.

In particular, Josh G. is not a spokesman of the black community. Black conservative Anabaptists are aware of MennoNet, but seem to not be interested in posting. Be assured they are active elsewhere in more productive pursuits than debating politics or learning at the feet of Professor Good.

[joshuabgood]

Gary...one other thing. It really bothers people of color when we play the two kingdom card if you will, dont take that too seriously, with regard to not speaking publicly to government on others peoples issues, but we are super organized about appealing our issues. Vincent Harding, a black Mennonite minister, was really bothered by that. The Menno church organized and appealed for special consideration from the Feds during WW2, but wouldn't speak to the feds about Civil Rights. It galled him.

Today meetings have been happening in the last couple years with Menno churches and authorities around the Corona Virus, sex abuse handling and church teaming with authorities, etc. Where are the meetings about issues on behalf of others?

(1) Church leaders are responsible for themselves. They need to be meeting with proper authorities about things like abuse (instead of opposing the police, like has happened too much in the past)

(2) It’s not reasonable to expect church leaders to go lobby the government at a mass scale on behalf of others. And where does this end? Should we be lobbying on behalf of slavery in China, which is at the largest scale of any slavery in human history? What should we lobby for? Tariffs? Closing the border with China? Starting a trade war or a regular war?

Well in Vincent Hardings case he was black and in the Menno church but nobody would advocate against racism to the authorities. Now we also have black Mennos in our churches. It would seem seemly to me for an official statement or appeal acknowledging what our black brothers and sisters are feeling, a lot of pain, and communicating on their behalf. Just like we did for our white folks in WW2. That was Vincent's point. Does that seem logical to you? It does to me. I understand why he was upset.

[joshuabgood]

One thing is for sure: nobody on MN speaks on behalf of the black community. I’m probably the most qualified here simply because of my ancestry, if we want to start discussing our 23andme profiles.

In particular, Josh G. is not a spokesman of the black community. Black conservative Anabaptists are aware of MennoNet, but seem to not be interested in posting. Be assured they are active elsewhere in more productive pursuits than debating politics or learning at the feet of Professor Good.

I guess I am not sure where your angst comes from. I apologize for making you upset. Is there something specific that you are harboring? If so please let me know. And no, I dont need to discuss ancestry or who is more qualified. It seems juvenile to me with all due respect. Thx.

[RZehr]

One thing is for sure: nobody on MN speaks on behalf of the black community. I’m probably the most qualified here simply because of my ancestry, if we want to start discussing our 23andme profiles.

In particular, Josh G. is not a spokesman of the black community. Black conservative Anabaptists are aware of MennoNet, but seem to not be interested in posting. Be assured they are active elsewhere in more productive pursuits than debating politics or learning at the feet of Professor Good.

I guess I am not sure where your angst comes from. I apologize for making you upset. Is there something specific that you are harboring? If so please let me know. And no, I dont need to discuss ancestry or who is more qualified. It seems juvenile to me with all due respect. Thx.

How I see it:

Josh used to be involved in liberal politics and still has friends and family (I suppose) there. He has “seen the light” so to speak and has little appreciation for it and the inclinations and tilt toward thereof.

Joshua used be sympathetic towards right wing politics and still has friends and family (I suppose) with that bent. He has “seen the light” so to speak and has little appreciation for it and the inclinations and tilt toward thereof.

Although each at times get accused of supporting Trump or a liberal agenda, they aren’t drive towards those things as much as they are driven away from their past.

[Robert]

There is plenty of data that show the vast vast majority, beyond a super majority of 66%, feel that systemic racism is an issue they face in the USA. Are you prepared to tell them all that they are wrong and that you know better than they do what they experience? If so, that seems arrogant to me. That is all.

I know that many feel that way, but I think data shows it is not the case presently. We should not govern by feeling, but by facts and current circumstances.

I also think that 66% of the nation that thinks abortion, gender identity and climate change are wrong. I also think 90% of Christianity is wrong for supporting war.

[Ken]

The black family and community in general was in excellent shape in the 1950s despite de jure racism and segregation. Things like neighbourhoods with prosperous black owned businesses, community and civic organisations, strong churches, high marriage rates and low illegitimacy rates.

After a few decades of the welfare state, things are in shambles. Do you disagree? The illegitimacy rate is 79%. Do you disagree that that’s a big problem?

Prior to the 1960s, there was actual de Jure segregation in all of the south and much of the north (through redlining and such) which meant that black professionals were forced to live in the same segregated neighborhoods as the less well off. So yes, those communities were more vibrant and they had a lot of educated and successful leaders. Starting in the 1960s but slowly accelerating by the 1980s, black professionals increasingly chose to start moving to the more affluent white suburbs for the same reasons as everyone else. Safer neighborhoods, better schools, more opportunity for their kids, etc. So a lot of traditional black neighborhoods that were once vibrant became "left behind" places.

This exactly describes Waco TX when I lived there for a decade in the early 2000s. Most of the businesses and jobs left the traditionally black neighborhood of East Waco one by one for subsidized greenfield land in the suburbs leaving an economic wasteland behind (and a lot of toxic debris). Taxpayers actually subsidized this by the building of suburban office parks and suburban industrial parks. The lack of public transportation makes it really difficult for poor folks to go long distances for jobs that used to be right next door. It's economics and geography, not the "welfare state"

The same exact thing happens in white communities, they just tend to be more rural. There are plenty of white communities where those with means have long fled, leaving behind a toxic stew of dysfunction:

Here in the Pacific Northwest: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/opin ... verty.html
In New Hampshire: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/21/us/n ... demic.html
West Virginia: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opin ... ginia.html

Urban black communities in crisis are just the flip side of white rural communities in crisis. The causes are essentially the same and are primarily economic at their roots. Saying that black folks should move out of the inner city gettos is the same as saying that white folk should get off their lazy butts and move out of West Virginia. Sometimes it's not so easy.

[GaryK]

Gary, I would lean on the vast vast majority of our black brothers and sisters in Christ to inform my understanding of the primary causes of the challenges faced by the black community. As I mentioned earlier, the black conservative voice, Elder, Malcolm X, Black Panthers, Obama, Washington, Sowell, etc I respect. In our context it is appropriate to let them speak to and challenge their communities. The truth is...the vast vast majority of the Black community, including our fellow Kingdom citizens in Christ, are not in the same place as Larry Elder.

I'm wondering how Jesus would respond to your assertion that His adherents should not be involved in presenting His Kingdom's values to the Black community?

I would say it this way, the core value is loving God and the next is loving your neighbor. We need to seek to understand and work for reconciliation prior to being in spot to pronouncing judgement or what seems to me to be way to close to victim blaming. Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. Before we go to removing lumber from some one else's eye, perhaps we should deal with our own plank. And I feel there are some major planks in our eyes and communities. Also, the black community is getting powerful prophetic teaching already. There are many black KingdomChristians, positioned well to teach and challenge. That is happening. We would do well to seek input and discipleship from them just as much as we see ourselves providing useful correctives. I have benefited from hearing teaching from our black brothers in the black communities. Let's be quicker to learn and listen and slower to judge or call them to repentance we deem necessary. Perhaps once our beam is removed we can more aptly help them with their lumber. Hopefully that makes sense and you see that perhaps it isn't counter to a kingdom gospel.

It is precisely because I love God and my black neighbors and care deeply for them that I am not fearful of forming relationships with them, learning from their culture, and promoting Kingdom values in the process. If you see that as judgmental and having a beam in my eye and not being merciful or a healthy thing to do, I think I'm ready to bow out of this discussion, which is probably the wise thing to do.

Just a parting thought. Nowhere in the NT writings do I find any indication that only certain people should be involved in promoting Kingdom values to certain people groups. The Kingdom gospel breaks down walls between people and you seem very hesitant to allow the gospel to do that unless it's preceded by agreeing to a certain ideology.

[joshuabgood]

Gary I am with you around building relationships. I have benefitted immensely from deep relationships I have with men from the black communities. Perhaps a story or two on that later...but I am much in their debt. I am not fearful of people of color.

[Ms. Izzie]

It seems to me the differences are from different understandings of how the Kingdom is to be lived in this world. Maybe God is calling people to different areas to promote His kingdom. If the way GaryK is living out Kingdom principles is promoting what seems to JoshG as racism, then there is a problem. This might need to be checked out. Is the CA church with its 2 Kingdom theology promoting favoritism/racism? And if so, how is it doing this? Maybe it would be helpful to explore that.

Soon everybody will end up accusing the other of wrong political ideology and nobody will learn from each other and that would be a shame.