George Floyd

Things that are not part of politics happening presently and how we approach or address it as Anabaptists.
temporal1

Re: George Floyd

Post by temporal1 »

AnthonyMartin wrote:I'm totally confused by this thread. I feel like I have very little perspective from either side on these arguments, and it doesnt seem to me that anyone here has personal experience to speak to racism authoritatively. This makes the passion with which these arguments presenting rather disconcerting to me.

It may help me to understand better if I knew what practical value you expect to bring to your community with these discussions. If you could change another's perspective, what value would that bring?
Not sure if you care to hear from me, but, briefly.
i reluctantly visited this thread. i have not read all pages. i often read threads because i enjoy reading a number of different members’ views on things. i don’t have expectation OP topics will remain “pure.” this is a discussion forum, discussions unfold as they go along.

i’m particularly dismayed at the power political blocs have in our lives.
they now become demanding of minutia of language, labels, objects, physical postures, nothing escapes their demands for alignment/conformity. how-on-earth did “we” get “here?” :shock:

there’s tremendous judgment in their minutia-demands. ^^
judgments seem immediate and “absolute,” no defense or explanation allowed.
“innocent until proven guilty” is not on political blocs’ radar.

RZehr’s OP begins with the topic of police abuses. not a bad topic.

if not hijacked for organized political blocs. organizers, activists, politicians, media make this very hard to escape. they want our brains, they intend to control them. down-to-the-last- “breath.”
imho. :-|

i am thankful for our U.S. UNorganized majority.
this diverse, independently-thinking, hard-to-poll, hard-to-nail-down non-group is reason for hope.
they don’t even know who-all they are. they “just are.” God’s creation. :)
Last edited by temporal1 on Thu Jun 11, 2020 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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appleman2006

Re: George Floyd

Post by appleman2006 »

joshuabgood wrote:


The recognition of systemic racism in US culture long precluded any critical race theory. Racism stands a problem with or with out critical race theory. Furthermore is an empirical reality. Just ask some black people close to you. Even if they know nothing about critical racism, if you are willing to listen. To folks like Keeshon, please read his essays, you will learn.
joshuabgood wrote: The recognition of systemic racism in US culture long precluded any critical race theory. Racism stands a problem with or with out critical race theory. Furthermore is an empirical reality. Just ask some black people close to you. Even if they know nothing about critical racism, if you are willing to listen. To folks like Keeshon, please read his essays, you will learn.
For what it is worth I have been reading his essays. I have only met Keeshon once. So I do not claim to know him well at all. But I would love to get to know him better. I hear his hurt and his frustration. And I will be the first to admit that I cannot fully understand. But even so I do want the very best for him.
I hesitate to say this next part because I accept that I have many blind spots and I as said before I do not know his situation fully.

But if he were my son this is the advice I would give him if he were asking me for it. I would strongly encourage him to move out of the city environment he is in. At least for 5 to 10 years. And I know the answer would probably be, but what if all the good guys move out? What happens then?
My fear for him is that if he tries to reform from within as he is obviously trying to do now that he will be caught up in the worst elements of the BLM movement rather than having those in that movement caught up in the ways of Christ.
I understand based on his experience why it may be hard to respect authority within local law enforcement but I would encourage him to look to the many many role models within his own community who would tell him something very similar to what I have just said.

Some keep saying we must listen to the black community and not just to the ones that happen to align with our philosophy. They say if we do the latter we are not really listening. I could not agree more. But that applies to all sides of this argument. To imply that only those that speak a certain way truly represent the best interests of the whole black community is to imply the very worst of racism in my mind which is to put everyone that looks alike in a box and assume they have all experienced the same things and think the same way. That is pigeon holing in the very way that we all despise when we are pigeon holed simply based on our appearance and culture. It is not right.
And here is a little hint that I have learned from. When someone dares to stick out from the crowd in spite of the fact that he is going to be ridiculed and second guessed by those he may most closely identify with I perk up and listen. No it does not mean he is automatically right but it does mean that he believes what he believes so strongly he is daring to be different even if it costs him. That makes me listen.
I have said this before but I will say it again in this context. Here in Canada our race issues are a bit different. At least until relatively recently. Oh we had our share of bigots. Still do for that matter. But growing up the black people I knew tended to be more often than not middle class or higher. More than likely they were a doctor or a professor or a well- to- do business person.
Our race problems had much more to do with the indigenous peoples among us. This really hit home to me some 30 years ago when my past brother told a story of something that happened to him while he was a chief at a boy's camp in SC. A white mother was bringing her son to camp. In an interview she over and over again kept referring to the boy's father who she claimed to be native. Sandy was at first quite confused because it was very very obvious that the boy's father was African American and he could not possibly figure out why she was trying so hard to convince him otherwise. And suddenly it became apparent to Sandy that the reason he found this so strange was because he had grown up in an environment where it might of actually been that a native mother would of tried to convince him that her son was of black parentage.
What I am saying in all of this is while the scenarios may be different, racism is not something I am unfamiliar with. It has been around in all it's ugly forms for a long time.
I was brought up in a home where treating someone badly because of difference in colour or religion or for any other reason was about the worst thing we could do. And because of that I think I have given the subject more thought than most over the last 40 years.
And my conclusion is simply that I think Jesus said it best. The human race is ultimately our neighbourhood. And until we truly learn to love others as ourselves and follow his example of loving all equally nothing will ever change.
Right now big city police departments are easy pickings. I can devout all my time to trying to figure out how they should change. If only they saw things my way and did things the way I think they should things would be better. But I cannot do anything about that really.
What I can do is make sure that I care for all of the people in my sphere of influence with all the love that I have. And that my friends will take me the rest of my life to accomplish. If I can fix that part I will be happy.

Blessings to each of you. I really believe that everyone of you reading this really want just that as well even if you might express it differently.
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Bootstrap

Re: George Floyd

Post by Bootstrap »

joshuabgood wrote:
AnthonyMartin wrote:I'm totally confused by this thread. I feel like I have very little perspective from either side on these arguments, and it doesnt seem to me that anyone here has personal experience to speak to racism authoritatively. This makes the passion with which these arguments presenting rather disconcerting to me.

It may help me to understand better if I knew what practical value you expect to bring to your community with these discussions. If you could change another's perspective, what value would that bring?
Ok...I'll have a go

I agree with you, as far as I know nobody personally participating would have experienced racism, since, presumably at least, we are all white.

My passion around this topic comes from deep relationships that I have with Christian brothers and sisters of color. And respect that I have for them and what they have shared with me...this learning, then, has confirmed and clarified a lot of things I see empirically. One of the things they have let me know, is that I can be more helpful in bringing awareness to these issues by speaking directly to my own people.

The practical value I hope to bring, is opening up people's minds to the systemic social issues and then by extension to our very own circles in the CA world. Simply, it is not an accident that 99% of CA churches are white. And it isn't because we are holier or more dedicated Christians. The hard truth is, that very few people from minority communities will ever feel at home in social settings where we prefer our ethnocentric, dare I say "white," way of doing things. Maybe this is insurmountable socially and birds of a feather flock together...I am somewhat open to that, though with regret in my heart that that is the case. Still even if it is, if our hearts were more open we could reach out and at least do some intentional things with our brothers and sisters, in their churches, to let them know we are in the same kingdom. We value them and their unique experiences in the American culture.
My experience is similar to yours.

My small Mennonite church has four black families, and they are responding strongly to current events. We have had discussions about this in church, after church, and in our Bible studies (which happen to be on the minor prophets right now). My sister married a black man and has two sons. One of my nephews (son of a brother) married a black woman and has a black son. Both are very concerned about the issues we are discussing here. My neighborhood is probably about 40-50% black. I have been having discussions with neighbors after running in the mornings.

Part of my feelings on this are related to the feelings of the people I just mentioned. They are telling me these are huge issues for them. And for some of them, the way I respond is directly related to the credibility of the Gospel I preach in church.
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temporal1

Re: George Floyd

Post by temporal1 »

OP, Page 1
RZehr wrote:I’m so sick of police brutality and senseless killing, and the “thin blue line”, the unnecessary force in restraining people, and the “stop resisting” pretense, and their freedom to lie to the public with no consequences.

I do respect our local deputies, but there is major problems in way to many police departments.
boot:
.. Part of my feelings on this are related to the feelings of the people I just mentioned. They are telling me these are huge issues for them. And for some of them, the way I respond is directly related to the credibility of the Gospel I preach in church.
Do you have a response to the OP? (i took a stab with Tony Timpa.)
Page 29
.. i caught a glimpse of this report on TONY TIMPA’s arrest-turn-deadly from 2016.
i don’t know the melatonin levels of Tony or the arresting officers.

'You're gonna kill me!':
Dallas police body cam footage reveals the final minutes of Tony Timpa's life
Timpa wailed and pleaded for help more than 30 times as officers pinned his shoulders, knees and neck to the ground in 2016.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investi ... pa-s-life/
My family and life may be a lot like yours. Quite mixed. In every way. Maybe that’s mixed-up. :P
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Bootstrap

Re: George Floyd

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:Do you have a response to the OP? (i took a stab with Tony Timpa.)
Black people are clearly not the only victims of police brutality. The things people are asking for would help white suspects too.
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Josh

Re: George Floyd

Post by Josh »

I think I’d appreciate it if joshuabgood quit being a spokesperson for black people. Particularly Mr Washington. I’d rather let his essays speak for themselves (and his videos he did on Anabaptist Perspectives, which if you haven’t watched, you probably should.)

I would appreciate it if joshuabgood would talk to me about disbanding police departments and addressing police brutality and abuses, instead of just calling me out as a racist over and over because I don’t agree with his liberal-progressive worldview. I would dare say I’ve done far more in my own community to prevent black people being harassed by the police than he has.
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Josh

Re: George Floyd

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:
temporal1 wrote:Do you have a response to the OP? (i took a stab with Tony Timpa.)
Black people are clearly not the only victims of police brutality. The things people are asking for would help white suspects too.
One in my area got killed by the police who was mentally handicapped. His brother was also mentally handicapped and it was really difficult for him to deal with. Eventually it settled out of court.

Marginalised white people just get written down as dying of drug overdoses etc (often true) when a police encounter turns fatal. Same thing as Floyd.

Of course, I’m not saying the police are always wrong, but if people are regularly dying of drugs in their system and large, unaccountable police departments exist, there are big problems that needed addresses. So who wants to talk about that? Or are we going to just continue to have smug white liberal on this forum telling me over and over how I’m a racist and need to go read certain books to correct my crimethink?
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AnthonyMartin
Posts: 1240
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:52 pm
Affiliation: LMC

Re: George Floyd

Post by AnthonyMartin »

The love of our neighbor in all its fullness simply means being able to say, "What are you going through? - Simone Weil
Is this true? Does it apply to the language used in this thread?
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joshuabgood

Re: George Floyd

Post by joshuabgood »

Josh wrote:I think I’d appreciate it if joshuabgood quit being a spokesperson for black people. Particularly Mr Washington. I’d rather let his essays speak for themselves (and his videos he did on Anabaptist Perspectives, which if you haven’t watched, you probably should.)

I would appreciate it if joshuabgood would talk to me about disbanding police departments and addressing police brutality and abuses, instead of just calling me out as a racist over and over because I don’t agree with his liberal-progressive worldview. I would dare say I’ve done far more in my own community to prevent black people being harassed by the police than he has.
JoshR - It feels to me like you feel antagonistic towards me. I am sorry that I wrote in such a way so as to make you feel like I was calling you a racist. While I was intending to draw attention to white systemic racism in our culture, I am willing to own that in that process, because of my deficiencies, I made you feel like I was calling you personally a racist. I apologize. Would you mind letting me know what I said that caused you to hear "Josh is a racist" over and over?

Yes. I have read Keeshon's essays. And yes I watched the episodes as well as his DKCM interview this past Monday. I have much regard for him and his message.

I don't embrace a liberal-progressive worldview, so I am not asking you to agree with that.

I affirm you for working with black people in your neighborhood to support them with regard to the systemic racism they experience at the hands of the legal system.

I certainly could do more than what I have done to be an ally to people of color. Too many times, I have denied their experiences. Too many times, I have laughed at racial jokes. Too many times, I have used the N-word or engaged in microaggressions. I confess it.
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Josh

Re: George Floyd

Post by Josh »

The thing is, Josh, I don’t work to remedy injustice against black people. I work for what Jesus told us to do without regard to skin colour.

You seem to find that somehow offensive or racist on my part.
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