George Floyd

[GaryK]

Here's a simple exercise. Take ANY thread where someone suggests that something that happened to a black person was terrible or that black people who are protesting have something valuable to say. Count the posts where people take that seriously and respond to it by expressing grief, mourning, or sympathy. Count the posts where people make broad stereotypes about black people and insist that whatever they are saying at the moment, it isn't valid. Count the posts where people imply that black people should just shut up, that they are being manipulated and are not logical, but we are thinking logically for ourselves. Seriously, take the time to make a tally of posts, ask what feelings each post elicits about who.

If this is what you are reading into my and others posts, I have nothing more to say. Please show us some examples of posts that imply that black people should just shut up.

[Bootstrap]

Here's a simple exercise. Take ANY thread where someone suggests that something that happened to a black person was terrible or that black people who are protesting have something valuable to say. Count the posts where people take that seriously and respond to it by expressing grief, mourning, or sympathy. Count the posts where people make broad stereotypes about black people and insist that whatever they are saying at the moment, it isn't valid. Count the posts where people imply that black people should just shut up, that they are being manipulated and are not logical, but we are thinking logically for ourselves. Seriously, take the time to make a tally of posts, ask what feelings each post elicits about who.

If this is what you are reading into my and others posts, I have nothing more to say. Please show us some examples of posts that imply that black people should just shut up.

Do the exercise. Then let's talk.

[GaryK]

Here's a simple exercise. Take ANY thread where someone suggests that something that happened to a black person was terrible or that black people who are protesting have something valuable to say. Count the posts where people take that seriously and respond to it by expressing grief, mourning, or sympathy. Count the posts where people make broad stereotypes about black people and insist that whatever they are saying at the moment, it isn't valid. Count the posts where people imply that black people should just shut up, that they are being manipulated and are not logical, but we are thinking logically for ourselves. Seriously, take the time to make a tally of posts, ask what feelings each post elicits about who.

If this is what you are reading into my and others posts, I have nothing more to say. Please show us some examples of posts that imply that black people should just shut up.

Do the exercise. Then let's talk.

Again, this assumes that I haven't been reading the posts. I have and I don't see what you are saying.

[Bootstrap]

Do the exercise. Then let's talk.

Again, this assumes that I haven't been reading the posts. I have and I don't see what you are saying.

This assumes that when you were reading, you didn't do anything remotely like this:

Take ANY thread where someone suggests that something that happened to a black person was terrible or that black people who are protesting have something valuable to say. Count the posts where people take that seriously and respond to it by expressing grief, mourning, or sympathy. Count the posts where people make broad stereotypes about black people and insist that whatever they are saying at the moment, it isn't valid. Count the posts where people imply that black people should just shut up, that they are being manipulated and are not logical, but we are thinking logically for ourselves. Seriously, take the time to make a tally of posts, ask what feelings each post elicits about who.

I think it's rare for people to do that, actually, and I bet you haven't. You won't understand what I am talking about without doing this. Odds are that when you read, you generally have a very different filter. We all have our own filters. Trying on a different filter from time to time is helpful.

How does each post make you feel about whom?

How many posts hunger and thirst for righteousness? How many posts grieve and mourn? How many posts express sympathy and a desire to learn more?

[GaryK]

Ok we are getting somewhere. Would you mind explaining how I am analyzing your reality by discussing broad social trends? It isn't my goal to do so. I am trying discuss broad social trends and systems and histories.

Here are two examples.

In this society we favor white culture. We prefer it. Our systems were built that way. We have conversely marginalized people of color...in one sense the system seems to prefer them in prison. We built it that way.

This suggests that all white people are guilty by association. That includes me. I reject the idea that I have conversely marginalized people of color when I know in my heart that I have been trying very hard, especially the last 10 years, to un-marginalize them in every way I can. I have spent the last 20 years of my life promoting the NT Kingdom system wherever I find myself, as an alternative to all the political/worldly/manmade systems/constructs of our day. After all, it has a much longer history than the systems you talk about. The NT Kingdom system, I believe, is the only system that has the potential to solve any social ailment in any society by changing people one heart at a time.

Further, if you haven't please read Keeshon Washington's essays online regarding racism/favoritism also within the CA community. He is a school teacher, FBEP alum, that works at Tidings of Peace, a very conservative CA school in York. And when you do...if you take a learning stance, you may find yourself moving on some points.

Here you seem to have concluded that I am not open to learning and that if I would be I would probably find myself moving toward your position. That is what I feel from those who hold to positions like yours. They know me better than I know myself and what is in my heart for the NT Kingdom.

Gary...I appreciate you. And you are a smart guy who is a follower of Jesus whom I would gladly commune with. I think of you as a brother in Christ. But I want to push you a little here...if you'll permit me.

1 - I am in fact apolitical, like I explained in the video, and therefore don't subscribe to right of left ideologies. I will not support these political factions

2 - It's not clear to me that I am telling you, in the quotes above, that you didn't have experiences that you had...which is the essence of your position with regard to people like Keeshon Washington, Daniel Pollard, and many many others. What I am doing is asking you to analyze broad historical trends. The quotes don't accuse you of individual malicious racism. I am asking again, are you willing to tell the vast vast majority of the black community, who state they have experienced systemic racism, that they are in fact wrong about their own experiences?

3 - I am pushing you around your disposition. That being, being willing to take a learning stance. No. That doesn't mean you have to agree with me. I would expect a learning stance from you to look like this. "Josh, I will read those articles by Keeshon Washington and then discuss them with you and maybe even reach out to my brother Keeshon to talk further. I also will read Just Mercy and then engage further." *Now maybe you did read those things already and just aren't willing to pass along something like "Josh I did read those resources carefully and here is why I am still at a different spot."

4 - The last time we had this conversation I had recommended that you reach out to local pastors of color in your community and ask them if they feel systemic racism is an issue in US society. Did you do that? If so with how many Christian pastors? What did they say? Also did you speak with the Asst Supt that you mentioned about whether or not he feels systemic racism is an issue in US society? If you in fact did, and all of these voices confirmed your position, I would appreciate knowing that as it willl demonstrate a learning stance.

5 - When you remark about it being hard to learn from a "white guy" that is a tell of things underneath that I'd like to hear more about. FWIW I engage in these topics on this board, because my brothers and sisters of color let me know that I can do the most good by engaging my own people. And that my own people are likely more likely to take a learning stance with me than they are with people from minority groups.

6 - As people who belong to the dominant white culture, we can acknowledge that, acknowledge our privilege, without it being threatening. Jesus himself was numbered with the transgressors, as my friend Lowell H puts it.

7 - I am familiar with Dr. Baucham and appreciate his witness. There is a long tradition of black conservative voices/prophets who speak challenges to their community. Such is as it should be. People like Sowell, Baucham and many others. Incidentally, Obama did this as well, encouraging his people to go to school, encouraging dads to be faithful, etc. The original black conservative voice was B Washington. He took the position that white people's hearts will never change and only their God, money/economic power, would provide the avenue for black people to gain equality. He may have misunderestimated (to quote Bush) the racism though. As they found out on Black Wall Street. Whites would not let Black people gain economic power. After Washington, believe it or not, Malcolm X was also a conservative voice. He argued for black people taking ownership of their own destiny. (His autobiography is a great read btw). And then even the Black Panthers echoed black conservatism. Here is where I suggest we be...in a collective public way we let the black voices challenge their community for whatever the issues they are they need to grown in. As part of white society, we willing be numbered with the transgressors like Jesus was and seek reconciliation.

Thanks for this thoughtful reply. We are short staffed today at work, which means I probably won't be able to respond until this evening.

[Robert]

Someone coming and reading this thread? They will see the same thing as what is happening in the world. It started about a video of an interaction between a Police officer and an unarmed man who was on drugs getting arrested and died because the officer exerted too much force.

It morphed into a discussion about race, just like BLM did to this. In this discussion, some have justified the riots, not protests, but riots. Some have glossed over the 19 other lives lost because of the riots.

I straight out said we all have been bamboozled. We had systematic racism. It has been removed, yet many people are living in the past. I suggest that we confront the reality of today so we can address the abuse of power in policing. Others want to increase the advantage black citizens get. They actually get advantages, but often do not see them as such because of the history that got us here today. Adding more advantages will not fix that. We all have to deal with the past and put it in its proper place. By doing so, we get true reconciliation instead of just more programmed advantages that create anger on those not advantaged.

I do not speak from a place of ignorance. When I was 9 years old, we moved to Texas. My close friends were black. During the racial riots the next 3 years in our area, I was the only white student guaranteed to be safe in our school. I was watched over and protected most of my high school years. Not from teachers or adults, but my friends. I am very slow to say black friends because I never saw that in them and they knew it. They shared their stories and I listened. I watched real racism. I stood against it by just never rejecting them. I ate lunch every day with them. We hung out on the playground. I saw the pain and hurt in their lives and faces when others rejected them because of their color. It still hurts me today thinking of my friends and the things they have had to endure.

Today, we do not have systematic racism. We have some failed systems. We have some racism. We have abuse of power in the policing. We have fatherlessness that is destroying our communities and culture. I will not glorify or promote anything that fosters more fatherlessness. Instead of putting a bigger bandaid on the wound, we need to fix the cut. I am absolutely convinced that it can not be done without God. There is a balm in Gilead.

[Bootstrap]

If they read my posts I would hope it would be clear to them that I believe political/worldly/manmade/systems are not the answer to all the social problems that have been evident in humanity since the fall of man.

I agree with that. But I also think the Bible says things like this:

7 He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bear fruits in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. 9 Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10 And the crowds asked him, “What then shall we do?” 11 And he answered them, “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” 12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” 13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.” 14 Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”

And I think that implies that John the Baptist, at least, might have something to say to the policeman who killed George Floyd. This was important enough to put in the New Testament. These concerns are not just a distraction from the Kingdom of God.

I also think that Jesus tells us we are blessed when we hunger and thirst for righteousness and blessed when we mourn. There's a lot of room for that with George Floyd.

[temporal1]

OP, Page 1

I’m so sick of police brutality and senseless killing, and the “thin blue line”, the unnecessary force in restraining people, and the “stop resisting” pretense, and their freedom to lie to the public with no consequences.

I do respect our local deputies, but there is major problems in way to many police departments.

Interesting that your subject line is “George Floyd,” your OP does not refer to race.
Race is “the” issue for this thread? or, was made to become the issue?
Also interesting that GaryK added a link on Page 27 about a view that race is a human construct.

i really dislike organized political blocs.
they are not human, they egregiously exploit individuals for the bloc’s “cause,” deep division results, violence is no stranger. they pretend to be human. they’re not. they are institutions of organized politics. they become wealthy and powerful entities, they never become human.

i caught a glimpse of this report on TONY TIMPA’s arrest-turn-deadly from 2016.
i don’t know the melatonin levels of Tony or the arresting officers.

'You're gonna kill me!':
Dallas police body cam footage reveals the final minutes of Tony Timpa's life
Timpa wailed and pleaded for help more than 30 times as officers pinned his shoulders, knees and neck to the ground in 2016.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/investi ... pa-s-life/

[AnthonyMartin]

I'm totally confused by this thread. I feel like I have very little perspective from either side on these arguments, and it doesnt seem to me that anyone here has personal experience to speak to racism authoritatively. This makes the passion with which these arguments presenting rather disconcerting to me.

It may help me to understand better if I knew what practical value you expect to bring to your community with these discussions. If you could change another's perspective, what value would that bring?

Difficult as it really is to listen to someone in affliction, it is just as difficult for him to know that compassion is listening to him.

Force is as pitiless to the man who possesses it, or thinks he does, as it is to it's victims; the second it crushes, the first it intoxicates. The truth is, nobody really possesses it. - Simone Weil

[joshuabgood]

I'm totally confused by this thread. I feel like I have very little perspective from either side on these arguments, and it doesnt seem to me that anyone here has personal experience to speak to racism authoritatively. This makes the passion with which these arguments presenting rather disconcerting to me.

It may help me to understand better if I knew what practical value you expect to bring to your community with these discussions. If you could change another's perspective, what value would that bring?

Ok...I'll have a go

I agree with you, as far as I know nobody personally participating would have experienced racism, since, presumably at least, we are all white.

My passion around this topic comes from deep relationships that I have with Christian brothers and sisters of color. And respect that I have for them and what they have shared with me...this learning, then, has confirmed and clarified a lot of things I see empirically. One of the things they have let me know, is that I can be more helpful in bringing awareness to these issues by speaking directly to my own people.

The practical value I hope to bring, is opening up people's minds to the systemic social issues and then by extension to our very own circles in the CA world. Simply, it is not an accident that 99% of CA churches are white. And it isn't because we are holier or more dedicated Christians. The hard truth is, that very few people from minority communities will ever feel at home in social settings where we prefer our ethnocentric, dare I say "white," way of doing things. Maybe this is insurmountable socially and birds of a feather flock together...I am somewhat open to that, though with regret in my heart that that is the case. Still even if it is, if our hearts were more open we could reach out and at least do some intentional things with our brothers and sisters, in their churches, to let them know we are in the same kingdom. We value them and their unique experiences in the American culture.

Lastly, I hope to raise a bit of awareness for folks like Keeshon, who have documented what they experienced at the hands of the CA community, microagressions, etc. (I myself could mention some racial things I have heard here at school with regard to racial comments directed by CA students at the few folks of color represented here. We of course intervene when we find these things out to teach/disciple and educate our community about race.)