George Floyd

[Joy]

What I just mentioned in my previous post about the NT Kingdom system is the reason I connect with what Voddie Baucham says in this video clip. I'm going to try to find the full video because I want to see what he says further.
[video][/video]

These are points I noticed from Scriptural fundamentals long ago.

So why do we allow current political mores to dictate our understanding in these matters?

[barnhart]

I can't see that the common definition of "race", basically the white/nonwhite divide, is any older than 15 century European colonialism. So obviously it will not correspond one to one with concepts in the Bible. But we certainly can make applications.

For me this raises the question: what would it look like in real life if those of us who say we embrace the two-kingdom way of life would reject the common/modern left/right definitions of "race" and act upon the biblical definition?

I would suggest that modern race is "made up" as Mr. Buchanan says, it is a social construct. But social constructs are very powerful. The best analogy I can come up with at the moment is cooties in grade school, as far as I know, cooties don't exist but they make lives miserable anyway. This analogy fails to some degree because it only illustrates the negative aspect of race and doesn't speak to the positive ways race informs our deep identities. Here I think Mr. Buchanan may over reach a bit, why shouldn't a history as profoundly influential as American chattel slavery, genocide and Apartheid shape identity, why wouldn't it form bonds of common experience and support. The group who has come through all that have every right to be proud of their identities and use their common history and culture as a guide into the future. The Kingdom gospel cuts across all those identities but I don't think it annihilates them. Some of the first struggles of the early church were around diverse identity groups bumping into each other as they came into the kingdom, so I expect some of this is natural. I imagine we could learn from their example of how they learned to be the church together and where they failed.

[Bootstrap]

These are points I noticed from Scriptural fundamentals long ago.

So why do we allow current political mores to dictate our understanding in these matters?

The title of this thread is "George Floyd". What do you think Scripture has to say about the policeman who killed George Floyd?

I'm not sure what keeps people from being receptive to listening to the rage and feeling that our black brethren may have something to tell us here. I suspect a lot of that may be political identification.

When I watched that video, I saw injustice. I saw cruelty. I saw murder. In a thread with the title "George Floyd", a lot of these posts seem to imply that nobody should be upset by those things, and anyone who is really upset about this is being unscriptural and political. I don't buy that.

[GaryK]

These are points I noticed from Scriptural fundamentals long ago.

So why do we allow current political mores to dictate our understanding in these matters?

The title of this thread is "George Floyd". What do you think Scripture has to say about the policeman who killed George Floyd?

I'm not sure what keeps people from being receptive to listening to the rage and feeling that our black brethren may have something to tell us here. I suspect a lot of that may be political identification.

When I watched that video, I saw injustice. I saw cruelty. I saw murder. In a thread with the title "George Floyd", a lot of these posts seem to imply that nobody should be upset by those things, and anyone who is really upset about this is being unscriptural and political. I don't buy that.

May I ask the same question of you? What do you think Scripture has to say about the policeman who killed George Floyd?

Saying that a lot of these posts seem to imply that nobody should be upset about these things is a gross misinterpretation. And again, it assumes to know better the hearts of those who are pushing for a 3rd, more Kingdom minded way, than they know themselves. You have no idea how seeing what one human being did to another human being in this case affected me and you seem to assume that it didn't upset me. For the record, it grieved my heart tremendously and made me so much more aware of how little Christ's Kingdom is doing to address what happened in a garden some 6,000 years ago. Jesus died to change people's hearts, something no political/manmade/worldly ideology can ever do.

[Bootstrap]

When I watched that video, I saw injustice. I saw cruelty. I saw murder. In a thread with the title "George Floyd", a lot of these posts seem to imply that nobody should be upset by those things, and anyone who is really upset about this is being unscriptural and political. I don't buy that.

May I ask the same question of you? What do you think Scripture has to say about the policeman who killed George Floyd?

I didn't ask a question. Could you please answer the question you asked me first? I suspect I will agree with your answer. Consider the minor prophets and the major sins for which Israel was condemned. Consider the ways Jesus treated marginalized people, standing up to institutions to do so. Consider Peter and Paul in Galatia. Maybe this deserves a thread of its own.

Saying that a lot of these posts seem to imply that nobody should be upset about these things is a gross misinterpretation. And again, it assumes to know better the hearts of those who are pushing for a 3rd, more Kingdom minded way, than they know themselves.

I wasn't commenting on hearts, I was commenting on posts. Suppose some stranger who does not know our hearts came into this forum and read these threads. What would that stranger conclude?

Here's a simple exercise. Take ANY thread where someone suggests that something that happened to a black person was terrible or that black people who are protesting have something valuable to say. Count the posts where people take that seriously and respond to it by expressing grief, mourning, or sympathy. Count the posts where people make broad stereotypes about black people and insist that whatever they are saying at the moment, it isn't valid. Count the posts where people imply that black people should just shut up, that they are being manipulated and are not logical, but we are thinking logically for ourselves. Seriously, take the time to make a tally of posts, ask what feelings each post elicits about who.

Maybe we all sincerely have the right feelings about black people. But sincere feelings aren't really the measure here. I don't think our posts show much receptivity at all to the things black people are experiencing and saying.

You have no idea how seeing what one human being did to another human being in this case affected me and you seem to assume that it didn't upset me. For the record, it grieved my heart tremendously and made me so much more aware of how little Christ's Kingdom is doing to address what happened in a garden some 6,000 years ago. Jesus died to change people's hearts, something no political/manmade/worldly ideology can ever do.

I would like to hear more of this, in this thread and in other places. To me, this is a very Christian response.

[GaryK]

When I watched that video, I saw injustice. I saw cruelty. I saw murder. In a thread with the title "George Floyd", a lot of these posts seem to imply that nobody should be upset by those things, and anyone who is really upset about this is being unscriptural and political. I don't buy that.

May I ask the same question of you? What do you think Scripture has to say about the policeman who killed George Floyd?

I didn't ask a question.

This is the question you asked Joy.

The title of this thread is "George Floyd". What do you think Scripture has to say about the policeman who killed George Floyd?

[Bootstrap]

May I ask the same question of you? What do you think Scripture has to say about the policeman who killed George Floyd?

I didn't ask a question.

This is the question you asked Joy.

The title of this thread is "George Floyd". What do you think Scripture has to say about the policeman who killed George Floyd?

OK, my bad. But I would still like to hear some of the rest of you address this. In my post, I pointed to some starting points in Scripture.

[GaryK]

Saying that a lot of these posts seem to imply that nobody should be upset about these things is a gross misinterpretation. And again, it assumes to know better the hearts of those who are pushing for a 3rd, more Kingdom minded way, than they know themselves.

I wasn't commenting on hearts, I was commenting on posts. Suppose some stranger who does not know our hearts came into this forum and read these threads. What would that stranger conclude?

Perhaps you weren't knowingly commenting on hearts but to make such a statement implies that you know what was in the mind/heart of those who posted.

If they read my posts I would hope it would be clear to them that I believe political/worldly/manmade/systems are not the answer to all the social problems that have been evident in humanity since the fall of man.

[MaxPC]

May I ask the same question of you? What do you think Scripture has to say about the policeman who killed George Floyd?

I didn't ask a question.

This is the question you asked Joy.

The title of this thread is "George Floyd". What do you think Scripture has to say about the policeman who killed George Floyd?

I don't think you got your question answered, Gary.

As for my own perspective re Scripture I look at those verses about the Roman soldiers who were the law enforcement of their day. Some were converted to Christ. Others were not. Still, the early Christians continued to witness to these soldiers and jailers where ever they were: in jail, on the streets, in their own towns. They didn't get involved in political media wrangling for hours/days/weeks at a time. They simply shared the Good News of Jesus Christ and helped their neighbors. Some were arrested. Some had to flee. And some even helped those soldiers come to Christ.

I think reading the New Testament again, slowly and thoroughly with an eye for how to be a witness to Christ in whatever circumstances we find ourselves; in whatever antagonistic political setting; will be most illuminating and instructive for Christians to proceed in our own era. Turning off the media and visiting our neighbors is a very good start. It's hard to hate someone who appreciates you as you are. We can start appreciating our real-time neighbors.

[joshuabgood]

I fully believe racism exists in our day and that black people experience it. It's inexcusable. I confront it when I see it in my friends.

I just find it hard to accept when another white person comes across as better positioned to analyze my reality than I am. That's what it feels like to me when I reject both left and right ideologies and simply try to live out how I believe Jesus would live in my surroundings. I'm then classified in the category of "white fragility" or not open to learning. How is that not also arrogant?

Ok we are getting somewhere. Would you mind explaining how I am analyzing your reality by discussing broad social trends? It isn't my goal to do so. I am trying discuss broad social trends and systems and histories.

Here are two examples.

In this society we favor white culture. We prefer it. Our systems were built that way. We have conversely marginalized people of color...in one sense the system seems to prefer them in prison. We built it that way.

This suggests that all white people are guilty by association. That includes me. I reject the idea that I have conversely marginalized people of color when I know in my heart that I have been trying very hard, especially the last 10 years, to un-marginalize them in every way I can. I have spent the last 20 years of my life promoting the NT Kingdom system wherever I find myself, as an alternative to all the political/worldly/manmade systems/constructs of our day. After all, it has a much longer history than the systems you talk about. The NT Kingdom system, I believe, is the only system that has the potential to solve any social ailment in any society by changing people one heart at a time.

Further, if you haven't please read Keeshon Washington's essays online regarding racism/favoritism also within the CA community. He is a school teacher, FBEP alum, that works at Tidings of Peace, a very conservative CA school in York. And when you do...if you take a learning stance, you may find yourself moving on some points.

Here you seem to have concluded that I am not open to learning and that if I would be I would probably find myself moving toward your position. That is what I feel from those who hold to positions like yours. They know me better than I know myself and what is in my heart for the NT Kingdom.

Gary...I appreciate you. And you are a smart guy who is a follower of Jesus whom I would gladly commune with. I think of you as a brother in Christ. But I want to push you a little here...if you'll permit me.

1 - I am in fact apolitical, like I explained in the video, and therefore don't subscribe to right of left ideologies. I will not support these political factions

2 - It's not clear to me that I am telling you, in the quotes above, that you didn't have experiences that you had...which is the essence of your position with regard to people like Keeshon Washington, Daniel Pollard, and many many others. What I am doing is asking you to analyze broad historical trends. The quotes don't accuse you of individual malicious racism. I am asking again, are you willing to tell the vast vast majority of the black community, who state they have experienced systemic racism, that they are in fact wrong about their own experiences?

3 - I am pushing you around your disposition. That being, being willing to take a learning stance. No. That doesn't mean you have to agree with me. I would expect a learning stance from you to look like this. "Josh, I will read those articles by Keeshon Washington and then discuss them with you and maybe even reach out to my brother Keeshon to talk further. I also will read Just Mercy and then engage further." *Now maybe you did read those things already and just aren't willing to pass along something like "Josh I did read those resources carefully and here is why I am still at a different spot."

4 - The last time we had this conversation I had recommended that you reach out to local pastors of color in your community and ask them if they feel systemic racism is an issue in US society. Did you do that? If so with how many Christian pastors? What did they say? Also did you speak with the Asst Supt that you mentioned about whether or not he feels systemic racism is an issue in US society? If you in fact did, and all of these voices confirmed your position, I would appreciate knowing that as it willl demonstrate a learning stance.

5 - When you remark about it being hard to learn from a "white guy" that is a tell of things underneath that I'd like to hear more about. FWIW I engage in these topics on this board, because my brothers and sisters of color let me know that I can do the most good by engaging my own people. And that my own people are likely more likely to take a learning stance with me than they are with people from minority groups.

6 - As people who belong to the dominant white culture, we can acknowledge that, acknowledge our privilege, without it being threatening. Jesus himself was numbered with the transgressors, as my friend Lowell H puts it.

7 - I am familiar with Dr. Baucham and appreciate his witness. There is a long tradition of black conservative voices/prophets who speak challenges to their community. Such is as it should be. People like Sowell, Baucham and many others. Incidentally, Obama did this as well, encouraging his people to go to school, encouraging dads to be faithful, etc. The original black conservative voice was B Washington. He took the position that white people's hearts will never change and only their God, money/economic power, would provide the avenue for black people to gain equality. He may have misunderestimated (to quote Bush) the racism though. As they found out on Black Wall Street. Whites would not let Black people gain economic power. After Washington, believe it or not, Malcolm X was also a conservative voice. He argued for black people taking ownership of their own destiny. (His autobiography is a great read btw). And then even the Black Panthers echoed black conservatism. Here is where I suggest we be...in a collective public way we let the black voices challenge their community for whatever the issues they are they need to grown in. As part of white society, we willing be numbered with the transgressors like Jesus was and seek reconciliation.