George Floyd

[barnhart]

Does anyone know how many black men have been killed in police custody vs. white men killed in police custody?

There is a lot of data collected by various organizations but I'm not aware of a definitive or official count. Here is data from 2015
https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/unarmed

-Police killed at least 104 unarmed black people in 2015, nearly twice each week. (See which police departments were responsible for these deaths)
-Nearly 1 in 3 black people killed by police in 2015 were identified as unarmed, though the actual number is likely higher due to underreporting
-36% of unarmed people killed by police were black in 2015 despite black people being only 13% of the U.S. population
Unarmed black people were killed at 5x the rate of unarmed whites in 2015

The Guardian has some interesting reporting, again from 2015
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ser ... e-killings

Despite making up only 2% of the total US population, African American males between the ages of 15 and 34 comprised more than 15% of all deaths logged this year by an ongoing investigation into the use of deadly force by police. Their rate of police-involved deaths was five times higher than for white men of the same age.

Paired with official government mortality data, this new finding indicates that about one in every 65 deaths of a young African American man in the US is a killing by police.

[barnhart]

The Minneapolis City Council Vice President Andrea Jenkins said George Floyd and Derek Chauvin knew each other for many years because they worked security at the same night club. Both men worked at El Nuevo Rodeo on Lake Street before their fatal encounter.

One has to wonder if this was NOT a random racist police killing of a Black man, but some kind of a discordant issue between the two of them.

Are you sure about this? I read some reporting of an interview with the owner of the nightclub who said they both worked there at the same time briefly, one inside and one outside, and she doubted they ever met.

[QuietlyListening]

Robert wrote-

He has been in the position for 1.5 years. I would think that would be time to make sure the administration and vision of the Police force would not be racist. This does not mean they have ferreted it out of every officer. This does mean that someone at the top should be awake to the needs of this issue.

If this officer had 18 complaints against him and nothing was done, then it is not administrative racism, but poor administration. There is no reason why larger city police forces should have any systematic racism in it. They have plenty of staff and resources for training and clearing out the bad actors.

My husband worked for county gov't for 10 years and it is not easy for one to discharge someone who has been there for any length of time. The charges need to be backed up with evidence then documented and there person is discipline or something and everything documented and this has to be done numerous times. You need evidence that is almost over the top or they can come back and sue you and be reinstated and they are 10x worse in their behavior. Unfortunately that is the way the system works, county, city, state or federal.

Also 1.5 years is not enough time to change a culture that has gone on for years and years, change a mind set of people. Just think of how difficult it is to change the mind set of Anabaptist culture and sexual abuse- even if you have leaders who want to change it and that is within the church - this is secular culture.

[Szdfan]

To say that there was no systematic racism because the chief of police is black, is an inadequate analysis.

This is not what I said.

This is what you wrote:

Since the Chief of Police in Minneapolis is African-American, This suggests there is not systemic racism in the administration of the department.

Could you clarify?

He has been in the position for 1.5 years. I would think that would be time to make sure the administration and vision of the Police force would not be racist. This does not mean they have ferreted it out of every officer. This does mean that someone at the top should be awake to the needs of this issue.

We’ve both pastored and led churches. How easy was it for you to change the culture of your congregation? Were you able to change the culture in 1.5 years?

[Robert]

My husband worked for county gov't for 10 years and it is not easy for one to discharge someone who has been there for any length of time. The charges need to be backed up with evidence then documented and there person is discipline or something and everything documented and this has to be done numerous times. You need evidence that is almost over the top or they can come back and sue you and be reinstated and they are 10x worse in their behavior. Unfortunately that is the way the system works, county, city, state or federal.

I would agree with all this. This does not make it racial, but poor administration and union overreach.

Also 1.5 years is not enough time to change a culture that has gone on for years and years, change a mind set of people.

I would also agree with this. This is why I stated that I would doubt there is racism in the administration of a Police department that has an African American as chief, but there may be cultural issues that have to be dealt with, like the difficulty of terminating bad behavior. Those officers can be given desk jobs to minimize.

My suspicions is that this officer and event are abnormal to the Minneapolis department. I do think there is an elevated issue of minority and Police interaction. Some of that is Police culture and some of that is minority culture that conflicts with law and order. This causes spill over and can cause clashes between the two and the one holding the power will use it, not always appropriately. I think this comes from poor training more than racism.

One example is a video I watched last night of a improper Police stop. A white woman was driving and her husband was black in the passenger seat. Their 2 month old baby was in the back seat. While it was a legal stop, it escalated and both were threatened by the Police officers when the two stopped tried to stand on their constitutional rights. The Police even threatened to have their child taken by Child Protective services. The end result is the officer was wrong, was severely reprimanded and placed on suspension. If he does this again, he will be removed from the department. The couple are considering a law suit, as they should. This is how to force departments to change culture.

I have seen videos of all races being stopped and illegally harassed by law enforcement. It is cultural, but not always racist.

[Robert]

We’ve both pastored and led churches. How easy was it for you to change the culture of your congregation? Were you able to change the culture in 1.5 years?

Yes. I have done it several times. One dealing directly with race relations. It does not mean everyone is at the same spot, but there is a vision and trajectory that is moving in a positive direction. One I would expect to allow at least one of the 4 officers at the Floyd stop to say, "No. This is wrong."

[Szdfan]

[Racism is not just about belief or what’s in someone’s heart. It’s also how power is exercised regardless of intent.

This sounds like a new political and malleable redefinition of the term in order to harness it’s emotional power for non-race based causes.

But I admit I’m not quite certain I fully understand what you are saying.

I’m probably not explaining it well. Let me try an analogy.

We’ve talked about the issue of sexual abuse in plain and conservative (and liberal!) Mennonite churches. Are perpetrators able to target victims and get away with it (at least for a while) because a sizable amount of Mennonites support sexual abuse? Do leaders fail to act when they become aware of it because they support rape? I don’t think so. I do think there are other cultural, systematic dynamics at play that enable perpetrators and stifle accountability regardless of people’s intents and beliefs.

[Ken]

Robert wrote-

He has been in the position for 1.5 years. I would think that would be time to make sure the administration and vision of the Police force would not be racist. This does not mean they have ferreted it out of every officer. This does mean that someone at the top should be awake to the needs of this issue.

If this officer had 18 complaints against him and nothing was done, then it is not administrative racism, but poor administration. There is no reason why larger city police forces should have any systematic racism in it. They have plenty of staff and resources for training and clearing out the bad actors.

My husband worked for county gov't for 10 years and it is not easy for one to discharge someone who has been there for any length of time. The charges need to be backed up with evidence then documented and there person is discipline or something and everything documented and this has to be done numerous times. You need evidence that is almost over the top or they can come back and sue you and be reinstated and they are 10x worse in their behavior. Unfortunately that is the way the system works, county, city, state or federal.

Also 1.5 years is not enough time to change a culture that has gone on for years and years, change a mind set of people. Just think of how difficult it is to change the mind set of Anabaptist culture and sexual abuse- even if you have leaders who want to change it and that is within the church - this is secular culture.

I'm not sure of the exact percentages, but I've read that the Minneapolis police department is overwhelmingly white and overwhelmingly suburban (something like 90-05% of police officers live in mainly white suburbs outside the city). It is also recruited heavily out of the military as is the case with most other police departments so there is a tendency towards more militaristic aggressive and tactical solutions than might be the case if officers were coming from a more diverse background such as social work

Bringing in a new boss from the outside isn't going to accomplish much unless you actually change the culture in the department which is probably going to take a generational effort. But accountability needs to be the first step. The fact that four officers stood around and did nothing when one of their colleagues strangled a man tells you all you need to know.

[Szdfan]

My husband worked for county gov't for 10 years and it is not easy for one to discharge someone who has been there for any length of time. The charges need to be backed up with evidence then documented and there person is discipline or something and everything documented and this has to be done numerous times. You need evidence that is almost over the top or they can come back and sue you and be reinstated and they are 10x worse in their behavior. Unfortunately that is the way the system works, county, city, state or federal.

I would agree with all this. This does not make it racial, but poor administration and union overreach.

Of course it’s possible for the issues at the Minneapolis PD are caused by poor administration, union overreach, cultural issues AND racism.

[Valerie]

Robert wrote-

He has been in the position for 1.5 years. I would think that would be time to make sure the administration and vision of the Police force would not be racist. This does not mean they have ferreted it out of every officer. This does mean that someone at the top should be awake to the needs of this issue.

If this officer had 18 complaints against him and nothing was done, then it is not administrative racism, but poor administration. There is no reason why larger city police forces should have any systematic racism in it. They have plenty of staff and resources for training and clearing out the bad actors.

My husband worked for county gov't for 10 years and it is not easy for one to discharge someone who has been there for any length of time. The charges need to be backed up with evidence then documented and there person is discipline or something and everything documented and this has to be done numerous times. You need evidence that is almost over the top or they can come back and sue you and be reinstated and they are 10x worse in their behavior. Unfortunately that is the way the system works, county, city, state or federal.

Also 1.5 years is not enough time to change a culture that has gone on for years and years, change a mind set of people. Just think of how difficult it is to change the mind set of Anabaptist culture and sexual abuse- even if you have leaders who want to change it and that is within the church - this is secular culture.

I'm not sure of the exact percentages, but I've read that the Minneapolis police department is overwhelmingly white and overwhelmingly suburban (something like 90-05% of police officers live in mainly white suburbs outside the city). It is also recruited heavily out of the military as is the case with most other police departments so there is a tendency towards more militaristic aggressive and tactical solutions than might be the case if officers were coming from a more diverse background such as social work

Bringing in a new boss from the outside isn't going to accomplish much unless you actually change the culture in the department which is probably going to take a generational effort. But accountability needs to be the first step. The fact that four officers stood around and did nothing when one of their colleagues strangled a man tells you all you need to know.

According to pictures I saw, the other 3 men were not white, one was black, not sure what ethnicity the other two were- any verification of the ethnicity of the 3? or race?