joshuabgood wrote: I can also tell that the idea of real church group membership and group scriptural discernment is unheard of in evangelical circles, and many CA's also have the mindset that "I decide" what the scripture means and how it is applied.
Although I have seen the "I decide" mentality, I have also seen a lack of scriptural discernment both as individuals and as a group. It's almost as if everybody has been conditioned to think, "As long as I'm a church member, I am good. Discernment is no longer necessary as an individual. I have the group to tell me what to do." When everybody has this mentality in a church, there isn't too much group scriptural discernment happening, even though there may be a strong emphasis on church membership.
It may be good to flesh out what is meant by "real church group membership" and "group scriptural discernment". Many people from CA churches have left for "greener pastures" after being burnt by "group think" and/or heavy-handed "authorities".
I have some thoughts about Jesus being President of a real kingdom, but maybe later.
joshuabgood wrote: I can also tell that the idea of real church group membership and group scriptural discernment is unheard of in evangelical circles, and many CA's also have the mindset that "I decide" what the scripture means and how it is applied.
Although I have seen the "I decide" mentality, I have also seen a lack of scriptural discernment both as individuals and as a group. It's almost as if everybody has been conditioned to think, "As long as I'm a church member, I am good. Discernment is no longer necessary as an individual. I have the group to tell me what to do." When everybody has this mentality in a church, there isn't too much group scriptural discernment happening, even though there may be a strong emphasis on church membership.
It may be good to flesh out what is meant by "real church group membership" and "group scriptural discernment". Many people from CA churches have left for "greener pastures" after being burnt by "group think" and/or heavy-handed "authorities".
I have some thoughts about Jesus being President of a real kingdom, but maybe later.
The point is...it should be discerned as a brotherhood. Luther famously argued any shepherd boy behind a bush with the Bible was better off than the Pope. And the Catholics argued the Pope was the infallible authority on the scriptures and he passed it to the Cardinals who passed it to the bishops, who passed it to the priests, who told the schlubs. However the Anabaptists reject both of those models. Brotherhood and community are where interpretation happens. All voices matter. It isn't heavy handed abused "leadership" or merely whatever "Jesus reveals to me." It is discernment and practice in community.
I got your point the first time. It's a great idea. Now how about some details on how it's done? Have you seen it done well by an Anabaptist group? What did it look like in practice?
joshuabgood wrote:... Becker elucidates three key ideas.
1) Jesus is the center of our Faith. Therefore Christianity can only be talked about in the context of discipleship. Therefore all scripture is interpreted through the person and practice of Jesus. Therefore Jesus is Lord/President and we belong to another kingdom (we aren't loyal to a pagan nation-state).
2) Community is the center of our Life. Therefore forgiveness between each other (horizontal) is essential and is key in how we access vertical forgiveness.Therefore the scriptures and our practice are discerned in community rather than individually or by the "authorities." Therefore members are known and held accountable through teamwork/brotherhood.
3)Reconciliation is the center of our Work. Therefore we work to reconcile people to God. We work to reconcile members to each other. We work to reconcile conflicts in the world.
I like this, but they are general enough that few would disagree. I imagine most Anabaptist groups would sign on, even those who you mentioned lack "compelling vision".
joshuabgood wrote:That is the essence of it in short...but there are many other great angles. Including moving away from "programs" based churches to fellowship/small groups based churches. (Similar to what Boyd would argue for.) Also the focus asking for forgiveness for specific sins (rather than just some ethereal original sin) is expounded on. As well as the truth that blessed are the merciful for they shall be shown mercy. We access grace by giving grace.
This may cause more sparks than the previous three points and has more potential for pointing out a way forward.
Well look...I can't rewrite the book. I boiled it down =). Also not every place is like NYC. I can tell you the notion of Jesus Christ being the final authority rather than "the scriptures," and that "the Word of God" is not a book, is quite provocative in many CA circles. I can also tell that the idea of real church group membership and group scriptural discernment is unheard of in evangelical circles, and many CA's also have the mindset that "I decide" what the scripture means and how it is applied. Further the notion the Jesus is President of a real kingdom is a far stretch from where most CA's and evangelicals are. And the notion of attaining forgiveness through forgiveness, and attaining salvation by suffering and dying like Jesus did (as opposed to the "finished work") is quite provocative in most circles.
Where can we learn about Jesus and study how He lived and what He really taught so that we can apply it to our lives?
With what did Jesus respond to temptation in the wilderness?
Can we totally separate the Living Word from the revealed Word?
Yes, Christ is the final authority, but how do you discern His will?
Josh wrote:With that said, I feel divided between a church that, say, ordains lesbian ministers who hold pet-blessing liturgies.
Between what and what?
I’m saying I cannot see a “universal” church beyond denominational boundaries that includes absolutely anyone. I don’t feel in fellowship with the ECLA Lutherans, for the above example (they have churches that do the above).
This is in response to Ken complaining that we have barriers and walls between denominations.
I was saying something somewhat different. I was saying I don't think God intended there to be so may walls between Christians. The denominations are what build those walls. I see nothing in the message of the New Testament that suggests this was God's plan. In fact I see no recognition of denominations at all anywhere in the bible.
I have visited many different types of churches in many different countries over the years. It is rare that I don't find something positive to reflect on, and I meet good people everywhere. I'm not calling for one universal church. Just suggesting that many Christians should be less divisive.
If Jesus were to return today, do you think he would only walk with your "one true church" the Holdemans and with no one else?
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
flyingnorm wrote:That cult like dynamic is what I referred to as the tribe in my original post. I personally would rather use the word tribe as it is more descriptive of an ethnic people group as opposed to a cult which describes a fringe or heretic religious group.
The majority of present day Anabaptists are a diverse group of descendants of diverse European ethnic group with a shared spiritual history. Our diversity today partially stems back to tribal diversities in Europe.
The majority of present day Anabaptists are not of European ethnic origin.
I should have specified North American Conservative Mennonites. Sorry, my mistake. I appreciate other groups, backgrounds, etc.
flyingnorm wrote:
1. Faith that equates the worship of the Living God with raising corn and chickens. No Jesus did have a farm, he borrowed fish and bread and corn when he was hungry.
So as a seeker with an unchurched atheist background would you recommend I stop gardening, stop paying my debts, and stop working to support my family of 8 on a single income and just pick up food at the food bank rather?
Nope, I recommend you feed your family through the means you have. Also recommend you help anybody in need. Also recommend that while feeding yourself, your family, and person in need, you consider the Giver of the good gifts you hold in your hand, and worship and give thanks to the living God. Then your crisis of faith is at least partially solved.
flyingnorm wrote:
1. Faith that equates the worship of the Living God with raising corn and chickens. No Jesus did have a farm, he borrowed fish and bread and corn when he was hungry.
So as a seeker with an unchurched atheist background would you recommend I stop gardening, stop paying my debts, and stop working to support my family of 8 on a single income and just pick up food at the food bank rather?
Nope, I recommend you feed your family through the means you have. Also recommend you help anybody in need. Also recommend that while feeding yourself, your family, and person in need, you consider the Giver of the good gifts you hold in your hand, and worship and give thanks to the living God. Then your crisis of faith is at least partially solved.
So why the negative comment about corn and chickens?
Wade wrote:
So as a seeker with an unchurched atheist background would you recommend I stop gardening, stop paying my debts, and stop working to support my family of 8 on a single income and just pick up food at the food bank rather?
Nope, I recommend you feed your family through the means you have. Also recommend you help anybody in need. Also recommend that while feeding yourself, your family, and person in need, you consider the Giver of the good gifts you hold in your hand, and worship and give thanks to the living God. Then your crisis of faith is at least partially solved.
So why the negative comment about corn and chickens?
Because those kinds of lifestyle choices are sometimes used to define Anabaptist values, identity, and become confused with faith. The negative comment had nothing to do with corn and chickens themselves, God made them good for our consumption and enjoyment.
My point is sometimes people worship cultural distinctives or lifestyle instead of God. There is a big difference.
flyingnorm wrote:
Nope, I recommend you feed your family through the means you have. Also recommend you help anybody in need. Also recommend that while feeding yourself, your family, and person in need, you consider the Giver of the good gifts you hold in your hand, and worship and give thanks to the living God. Then your crisis of faith is at least partially solved.
So why the negative comment about corn and chickens?
Because those kinds of lifestyle choices are sometimes used to define Anabaptist values, identity, and become confused with faith. The negative comment had nothing to do with corn and chickens themselves, God made them good for our consumption and enjoyment.
My point is sometimes people worship cultural distinctives or lifestyle instead of God. There is a big difference.
I think this happens when people start listening to how the rest of the world defines a group. Your comment just further enforces the belief of the world rather than focus on Christ.
If an Anabaptist is asked what religion or denomination they are and they don't answer, "Christian" maybe they have started or do allow the worlds view of them define there worship more than Christ?