The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[Dan Z]

Ernie - thanks for helping us understand better. I appreciate your insights and your openness...and your service for the Kingdom with CAM.

[flyingnorm]

I agree with Ernies comments that there are contrasting cultures with anabaptism, and an organization like CAM is wonderfully positioned to build on the strengths of both the Amish tradition and the Mennonite tradition, or on the Old Order and the moderate conservative streams. The two value systems are not exclusive but can be complimentary or conflictual depending how well people listen to each other.

However when an organization enters crisis mode, it primary leaders default style will likely show through pretty clearly. In this case, the Amish / Beachy style that is built around being a part of “our people” rather than being built around the concept of adherence to written mission, values, policies and practices like much of the rest of society.

Tribal instinct runs very high in groups of people that perceive themselves to be different from the world around themselves. This instinct means you need to protect the tribe at all costs, even when the tribe hurts you or does things you disagree with. After all, betrayal of the tribe means you just lost your identity, home, safety, etc. In fact, lose the tribe, the tribe lost you, nothing worse than being lost.

CAM protects its tribe, the tribe protects CAM, simple as that. Jeriah was a part of CAM, CAM protected him as long as they could. When they were unable, the tribe went into a crisis of conscience as it realized what it was protecting.

Now the tribe’s only option is to do what all tribes do everywhere when they are in crisis, they focus on survival as a tribe, not just as individuals. They deepen their commitment to each other, their leaders become more protective of the tribe, and the financiers / food gatherers / spiritual leaders of the tribe become more controlling as money /food / spirituality are essential to survival of the tribe.

As I see it, Anabaptists are facing a much bigger institutional crisis than CAM or Jeriah Mast. Its a crisis of faith, who do we depend on? What are we committed to? Merely maintaining our favourite tribal allegiance or following God and His word with a sincere heart of love for others doing the same. It seems to me this crisis of faith has left many Anabaptist people struggling with unmanageable depravity. The tribe can always protect you from the world around you, but only Christ can save your soul, and only Gods word can direct your faith.

[steve-in-kville]

As I see it, Anabaptists are facing a much bigger institutional crisis than CAM or Jeriah Mast. Its a crisis of faith, who do we depend on? What are we committed to? Merely maintaining our favourite tribal allegiance or following God and His word with a sincere heart of love for others doing the same. It seems to me this crisis of faith has left many Anabaptist people struggling with unmanageable depravity. The tribe can always protect you from the world around you, but only Christ can save your soul, and only Gods word can direct your faith.

I call it "survival mode." I agree that the Anabaptist churches all across the spectrum, from COB to the most conservative groups, are all facing challenges we wouldn't have imagined even twenty years ago. If we sink too deep into self-preservation, we can no longer reach out to needs of those outside our "zone."

But that's a thread for another day

[joshuabgood]

Values
In short, Old Orders, many ultra conservatives, and many traditional minded folk look at things in terms of decades and centuries, not in terms of years.
"The proof is in the pudding. Actions, not words is what is important. Do what is right even if people think you are stupid and eventually people will see the product. People are developed through living and through service. Not through training programs and education. God isn't looking for smart people who have all the answers. God is looking for faithfulness. Don't be trendy and try to keep up with everybody else. No need for fancy mission statements and publicity teams. Stay humble, follow Jesus, and God will reward you."

I think a lot of CAM leadership lives out of these values.

Thanks for this...and for the willingness to dialogue a Dan mentioned. I hear the emphasis "on action" and a "long view" of things. I did see the value, humility, mentioned also. My feeling is that, stated or not, there are other bedrock beliefs/values that guide the way any organization operates and the culture it inevitably forms. And we do well as organizations to critically examine those. Perhaps, at times, to some with an inquiring mind, there seems to be some incoherence.

[Ernie]

My feeling is that, stated or not, there are other bedrock beliefs/values that guide the way any organization operates and the culture it inevitably forms. And we do well as organizations to critically examine those. Perhaps, at times, to some with an inquiring mind, there seems to be some incoherence.

I won't dispute this at all.

I do know that some leadership used to read what people were writing on social media including MN, and then they quit, because they didn't want to be influenced by a vocal minority.

As I said earlier, I'm trying to state "what is", not what "should be". My information is simply to explain why you may not see what you would like to see coming from CAM. Whether it will eventually come or never come is not something I can predict at this point.

[Neto]

The more conservative end of the spectrum are the people who stuff newsletters.....

It has been some years now since I was personally involved in this, but at the times I was helping with this here in the Berlin operation, from what I recall now, I would not say that most of the people were from the really conservative end of the spectrum. (Maybe I don't know what exactly is meant by that in your concept of these terms.)

[steve-in-kville]

I do know that some leadership used to read what people were writing on social media including MN, and then they quit, because they didn't want to be influenced by a vocal minority.

Keep in mind its often the "vocal minority" are the ones to be afraid of.... they don't follow the crowd and think for themselves.

[joshuabgood]

My feeling is that, stated or not, there are other bedrock beliefs/values that guide the way any organization operates and the culture it inevitably forms. And we do well as organizations to critically examine those. Perhaps, at times, to some with an inquiring mind, there seems to be some incoherence.

I won't dispute this at all.

I do know that some leadership used to read what people were writing on social media including MN, and then they quit, because they didn't want to be influenced by a vocal minority.

As I said earlier, I'm trying to state "what is", not what "should be". My information is simply to explain why you may not see what you would like to see coming from CAM. Whether it will eventually come or never come is not something I can predict at this point.

Not spending a lot of time on social media is a mark of a wise person in my view.

I understand you are describing, which is what I was interested in. How they think of themselves...

[Time4Truth]

As I see it, Anabaptists are facing a much bigger institutional crisis than CAM or Jeriah Mast. Its a crisis of faith, who do we depend on? What are we committed to? Merely maintaining our favourite tribal allegiance or following God and His word with a sincere heart of love for others doing the same. It seems to me this crisis of faith has left many Anabaptist people struggling with unmanageable depravity. The tribe can always protect you from the world around you, but only Christ can save your soul, and only Gods word can direct your faith.

So well expressed!

When tribal mentality, work ethics, group codes & deeds of service trump the power of the blood and moving of the Holy Spirit, religion is 'weighed in the balance and found wanting'.

A 'wake-up' call is sounding.
As we stand before the Judge, faced with 'truth' and 'justice', any tribal name, ministry involvement, or good deeds become chaff. At that moment, our personal faith, integrity and purity stands alone.

[silentreader]

I do know that some leadership used to read what people were writing on social media including MN, and then they quit, because they didn't want to be influenced by a vocal minority.

Keep in mind its often the "vocal minority" are the ones to be afraid of.... they don't follow the crowd and think for themselves.

...and can't seem to fit in anywhere...

I'm not sure about the grammar in the last part of your sentence, doesn't the "and" link "think for themselves" back to the "don't" or perhaps that's what you intended, or perhaps my grammar is wrong.