Mark Gooch-Arrested for the murder of Sasha Krause

[Josh]

I would not call a member of the military “in our fold” in any fair estimation. That sheep left.

J.M.

Like it or not, he’s an ethnic Mennonite, even if he isn’t one in terms of religion.

I find this comment interesting Josh. I'm wondering how you define ethnic Mennonite?

Someone who grows up with an ethnic cultural identity from birth or a young age. This does include people whose parents or grandparents are converts, but for the child themselves, they grew up immersed in the culture.

There are two kinds of people in the world:

1. People who are ethnic Mennonites (such as yourself)
2. People who are not ethnic Mennonites (such as myself)

No matter how much you and I change in adulthood, those two facts are fixed and immutable.

Ethnic connections mean a lot. It determines who you socialise with by default, and who your extended circle of people is that you know. Being one of the other isn’t a good or a bad thing either.

A curiosity is someone from an ethno-religious background who leaves that religion, compared to a convert such as myself.

For example, Janet Overholt (who organises the AIC) is an ethnic Holdeman Mennonite person. I am not. She isn’t part of this religion tho whilst I am indeed a convert who has cast his lot in 100%.

But, she has many family connections and friends I don’t have. She has a Holdeman accent, and I don’t. If she called up a person in my church on the phone, they’d have a gut feeling of more trust off the bat than they would if I did. (That’s not a complaint - that’s just the way things are.)

She will have a fundamental understanding of how other Holdeman Mennonites think and act that I fundamentally lack. And that won’t ever change.

[Ernie]

Like it or not, he’s an ethnic Mennonite, even if he isn’t one in terms of religion.

I'm wondering how you define ethnic Mennonite?

Someone who grows up with an ethnic cultural identity from birth or a young age.

Ok. I don't think of someone as ethnic Mennonite until the third generation. In my mind it typically (not always) takes about three generations until a person no longer has the strengths/weaknesses/patterns of the former culture and has taken on the strengths/weaknesses/patterns of the new culture.

[Josh]

I'm wondering how you define ethnic Mennonite?

Someone who grows up with an ethnic cultural identity from birth or a young age.

Ok. I don't think of someone as ethnic Mennonite until the third generation. In my mind it typically (not always) takes about three generations until a person no longer has the strengths/weaknesses/patterns of the former culture and has taken on the strengths/weaknesses/patterns of the new culture.

Quite a high bar to clear there.

I think there needs to be acceptance that this incident was an intra-ethnic act of violence. I think it’s extremely disingenuous to try to cast out this young man as not somehow part of the Mennonite community.

[ABC 123]

Josh, now I understand something about myself and siblings that I grappled with for a long time about ethnic Mennonites. Different aged siblings can have a completely different take on their "religious ethnicity".

[Josh]

Josh, now I understand something about myself and siblings that I grappled with for a long time about ethnic Mennonites. Different aged siblings can have a completely different take on their "religious ethnicity".

Sure - I have a stronger Australian identity than my little brother does. Doesn’t change the fact that’s both what we are, though.

[Aurien]

Someone who grows up with an ethnic cultural identity from birth or a young age.

Ok. I don't think of someone as ethnic Mennonite until the third generation. In my mind it typically (not always) takes about three generations until a person no longer has the strengths/weaknesses/patterns of the former culture and has taken on the strengths/weaknesses/patterns of the new culture.

Quite a high bar to clear there.

I think there needs to be acceptance that this incident was an intra-ethnic act of violence. I think it’s extremely disingenuous to try to cast out this young man as not somehow part of the Mennonite community.

I'm frankly disgusted by the number of Mennonites (who are ethnic by Ernie's definition) on Facebook who are bending over backwards to try to prove that Mark Gooch was never Mennonite in any way. One woman has gone so far as to say this,

He was a son of a first generation convert family who did not accept the Mennonite church’s reports that their son was ill behaved. So no he was definitely NOT being taught in a traditional Mennonite way.
I saw a comment saying that the Gooch parents’ refusal to deal with their son’s bad behavior got them excommunicated. So the church TRIED to deal with the problem the best way they knew I.E. cause the parents to take hold and steer their son into better behavior. Unfortunately it still didn’t work and now we have this horrible murder. Again- NO it is obvious what went wrong here had nothing to do with being Mennonite. If ONLY the parents would have taken their advice. Instead of shielding his behavior and allowing this monster to be created. How tragic

This is one of only many comments that have been made about how he was never Mennonite in any way, shape or form. I know he rejected the Mennonite way of life and never joined the church. It doesn't change the fact that he was indeed brought up in the Mennonite culture. I don't understand why people are twisting themselves into pretzels to try to prove that he wasn't.

[Josh]

I’d love to see Jeriah Mast’s parents held to the same standard.

This is really ugly. And disheartening to think of how other Mennonites will think about me as a “first generation convert”.

[TruthSeeker]

This is really ugly. And disheartening to think of how other Mennonites will think about me as a “first generation convert”.

Are the fundamental questions:

1) When does "culture" become more subtly valued to the constituents comprising it than the Christianity they profess and the application of Christ's unconditional inclusion?

2) Does this likely unintentional shift of valuing culture over Christianity ultimately lead to discrimination?

[Neto]

Maybe someone else already posted this some place, but here is the link to the arrest warrant.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/docume ... uments.pdf

[Ernie]

Someone who grows up with an ethnic cultural identity from birth or a young age.

Ok. I don't think of someone as ethnic Mennonite until the third generation. In my mind it typically (not always) takes about three generations until a person no longer has the strengths/weaknesses/patterns of the former culture and has taken on the strengths/weaknesses/patterns of the new culture.

Quite a high bar to clear there.

My third generation comment applies to anyone changing cultures around the world. It could be Iranian Muslims, Indian Hindus, etc. I'm not saying that the new culture is something better than the one they had before. It takes a long time to unravel oneself from a culture, and take on a new one. If this is what you mean by "clearing the bar" then I agree.
The first generation starts the process.
The second generation often lives out of two cultures/worldviews. They may end up embracing the new culture or they may react to it.
The third generation does not have much memory of the original culture and they are likely to take up the path of either their "reactive" parents, or their "embracing" parents.
There are Christians who become agnostics or atheists, Muslims or Buddhists. There are cultures that go with all of these. There are still remnants or carryovers from their Christian heritage/culture that often show up in their children. It is often the grandchildren who lose all memory of the Christian culture once held by their grandparents.
And just for clarification to anyone who didn't read the initial conversation, we are discussing culture and ethnicity. I'm sharing a basic sociological principle.
I am not saying that a person cannot become a believer in another religion within a short period of time, and immediately experience some or all of the blessings/disadvantages of that faith.

For what it is worth, I am not speaking out of a vacuum. I worked/interacted with Mark and one of his siblings 5 years ago when they helped to build our house.