Why Mennonite Death Rate Was Double Average During 1918 Flu Epidemic

[I Timothy]

I don't agree with the reason. Other churches socialize at least as much as Mennonites do. Our boys go to a non Mennonite church school. There are always activities, more than most Mennonite activities. They have Saturday breakfast, birthday parties, Wednesday night suppers, basketball games, cross country, holiday activities, outreach activities, preschool, youth group, Sunday School socials, MOPS, several prayer and sick ministries, etc. Do you really think the non Mennonites just sit at home and don't socialize?

The real reason probably has to do with lack of access to health care or lack of good hygiene practices. These are real reasons that lead to poor health outcomes.

You do realize that this article was about the spanish flu, and has no relevance to current practice.

J.M.

Right. Mennonites are not the first or only church to have socials. Also, Mennonites didn't develop a suspicion of science and medicine in 2020, these attitudes have been around for a long time. Lack of access to medical care leads to poor health outcomes.

[MaxPC]

The reason why China is interesting: apparently it has to do with the fact they were the first people to domesticate geese, and later, ducks, who just happen to be more suited to being zoonotic reservoirs for flus, combined with various cultural factors that made it possible for the diseases to occasionally jump to humans.

JM, spot on, with only a few exceptions of course.

Re China, they have a penchant for what we would call exotic meats: pangolin for one, which also a factor in zoonotic pathogens.

The open air meat markets with onsite butcheries that aren’t maintained to Western hygiene standards don’t help either.

I have been to China, and seen one of these from the balcony. My thought was "Why are these people not dead."

One of the reasons is that these exotic animals are consumed as part of a system of traditional medicine. It includes consumption of all sorts of exotic animals, normally freshly killed. Since opposite cures, bats are a favorite for vision problems. So are other things that come from a bat. Yes it is crazy.

The current government is pushing Chinese traditional medicine really hard. It is their cultural wisdom, or so says the CCP.

J.M.

Was reading an article a few years ago that was written by a Chinese researcher who detailed the aging of the Chinese population. Their health care system is unable to keep up with health care for the general populace, much less for age-related health issues so the government is going back to pushing traditional Chinese medical cures similar to what J.M. describes in order to cut costs. Like J.M., I too wonder about how they have not had more death with some of those "cures".

[Josh]

Right. Mennonites are not the first or only church to have socials. Also, Mennonites didn't develop a suspicion of science and medicine in 2020, these attitudes have been around for a long time. Lack of access to medical care leads to poor health outcomes.

Do you have any evidence this was the case in the Spanish Flu? The original (academic) article speculates on possible causes.

In 2020, Mennonites and other plain people have excellent access to medical care - much better than the average person and the poor person, that’s for sure.

On the other hand, Mennonites definitely behave in more social behaviour than the average person - this is another topic that has been studied. I assure you the average American is not experiencing as many youth volleyball games, potluck suppers, large family reunions, weddings and funerals with 600+ attendees, and so on as Mennonites experience.

[Pelerin]

The original article pointed to rotating church services in different towns. The question is whether the same pattern holds true for other Mennonite communities that also rotated services. I think the Hornings still do this. Was it common in other areas as well? Am I correct in thinking it’s more of a (real) Mennonite thing as opposed to an Amish-Mennonite thing?

Since we’re talking about just one rural enclave, so we could just be looking at a coincidence or luck-of-the-draw. For example, flu peaks in the winter. Perhaps the Mennonites were infected by a visiting preacher right before winter whereas, say, the Ukrainians may have been infected over the summer and consequently the outbreak wasn’t as widespread among them.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I don't agree with the reason. Other churches socialize at least as much as Mennonites do. Our boys go to a non Mennonite church school. There are always activities, more than most Mennonite activities. They have Saturday breakfast, birthday parties, Wednesday night suppers, basketball games, cross country, holiday activities, outreach activities, preschool, youth group, Sunday School socials, MOPS, several prayer and sick ministries, etc. Do you really think the non Mennonites just sit at home and don't socialize?

The real reason probably has to do with lack of access to health care or lack of good hygiene practices. These are real reasons that lead to poor health outcomes.

You do realize that this article was about the spanish flu, and has no relevance to current practice.

J.M.

Right. Mennonites are not the first or only church to have socials. Also, Mennonites didn't develop a suspicion of science and medicine in 2020, these attitudes have been around for a long time. Lack of access to medical care leads to poor health outcomes.

I hate to have to school you a bit, but medical care in the 1918 era was almost useless in case of the flu. Remember, no antibiotics, no IVs almost no oxygen, and a total misunderstanding of what viruses were and how they kill. Essentially in the modern sense, no one had medical care. It was not until the 1930s that a person who called a doctor had more than a 50/50 chance of coming out better for the encounter.

Another thing that may be noted was that many christian groups avoided doctors altogether. Up until that period the Christian and Missionary Alliance discouraged members from seeking the "physicians of Egypt" and relying on prayer and basic nursing care instead. Berachah house in New York is perhaps the most noted example. This was common in the C&MA up into the 20s, after that the healing position became much more "To know to do good and fail to do it is sin." If you are interested, get a copy of "All For Jesus" which recounts this transition quite well.

So, 1918 mennonites were not the only ones that were skeptical of medicine. And in that period, they may have been wise in doing so.

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

JM, spot on, with only a few exceptions of course.

Re China, they have a penchant for what we would call exotic meats: pangolin for one, which also a factor in zoonotic pathogens.

The open air meat markets with onsite butcheries that aren’t maintained to Western hygiene standards don’t help either.

I have been to China, and seen one of these from the balcony. My thought was "Why are these people not dead."

One of the reasons is that these exotic animals are consumed as part of a system of traditional medicine. It includes consumption of all sorts of exotic animals, normally freshly killed. Since opposite cures, bats are a favorite for vision problems. So are other things that come from a bat. Yes it is crazy.

The current government is pushing Chinese traditional medicine really hard. It is their cultural wisdom, or so says the CCP.

J.M.

Was reading an article a few years ago that was written by a Chinese researcher who detailed the aging of the Chinese population. Their health care system is unable to keep up with health care for the general populace, much less for age-related health issues so the government is going back to pushing traditional Chinese medical cures similar to what J.M. describes in order to cut costs. Like J.M., I too wonder about how they have not had more death with some of those "cures".

I have heard much the same from some of the scholars I deal with at the Bible study. I have actually heard one of them say if their society brought decent western style medicine to every Chinese, it would require the end of "Belt and Road" and their military expansion. Can't have that you know.

Traditional Chinese medicine as a replacement for the "barefoot doctor"?

J.M.

[MaxPC]

I have heard much the same from some of the scholars I deal with at the Bible study. I have actually heard one of them say if their society brought decent western style medicine to every Chinese, it would require the end of "Belt and Road" and their military expansion. Can't have that you know.

Traditional Chinese medicine as a replacement for the "barefoot doctor"?

J.M.

Their Belt and Road/military expansion is financed by selling cheaply made goods to other nations. All their healthcare resources have been diverted to their urban areas and their rural population is living in abject poverty; and they’re still unable to meet rudimentary needs in the urban centers. The elderly are not being cared for by the traditional kinship system as it once existed because the younger married women have taken jobs under their current economic push.

[barnhart]

Was reading an article a few years ago that was written by a Chinese researcher who detailed the aging of the Chinese population. Their health care system is unable to keep up with health care for the general populace, much less for age-related health issues so the government is going back to pushing traditional Chinese medical cures similar to what J.M. describes in order to cut costs. Like J.M., I too wonder about how they have not had more death with some of those "cures".

I think most if the treatments are rooted in thousands of years of practice, if they were harmful, it would have been discovered long ago.

[MaxPC]

Was reading an article a few years ago that was written by a Chinese researcher who detailed the aging of the Chinese population. Their health care system is unable to keep up with health care for the general populace, much less for age-related health issues so the government is going back to pushing traditional Chinese medical cures similar to what J.M. describes in order to cut costs. Like J.M., I too wonder about how they have not had more death with some of those "cures".

I think most if the treatments are rooted in thousands of years of practice, if they were harmful, it would have been discovered long ago.

Actually they abandoned many of those practices because they were harmful in favor of Western medicine. Then their communist revolution drove out westerners. Since then they have refocused their priorities on making money to funnel into their military.

[barnhart]

Actually they abandoned many of those practices because they were harmful in favor of Western medicine. Then their communist revolution drove out westerners. Since then they have refocused their priorities on making money to funnel into their military.

It's not abandoned where I live. I can take you to streets lined with practitioners and herb vendors. I don't see people dying from it. It won't cure cancer or a broken leg, but I don't think it causes too much damage.