The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[Aurien]

This manner of handing abuse cases seems good to me, except that I would combine #1 and #3. I believe that law enforcement professionals are typically an independent group of trained professionals who are qualified and authorized to deal with an accused person. I'm not sure if I am on board with always calling for a third party organization, who are not law enforcement and who have no real authority other than to make recommendations or assist with the org's public image, to come in and investigate abuse issues. I think this is something an organization may want to do, but I don't think it is something that always must be done in order for abuse to be dealt with properly.

I would keep the law enforcement investigation separate from the church's investigation. Law enforcement has a very high burden of proof to meet and is often slow in getting to a conclusion. The goal of law enforcement's action is different than the goal of a church investigation. For example, a church can move very quickly to remove a teacher from their position with just an allegation of wrongdoing. The church will make a decision of fellowship and communion, issues that law enforcement are not involved with. Does a church want to wait for a guilty verdict before taking any action? What if the prosecutor decides not to prosecute a case even if their sufficient evidence of wrongdoing? Either way, these are issues the ministry should avoid and let others within the church handle.

For example, a married adult youth leader is at a youth activity on a Friday night. He starts talking to an 18 year old girl during a volleyball game and it leads into a longer conversation around a campfire and everyone leaves. During this conversation he puts her arm around her, she doesn't resist and he tells her how beautiful she is. Law enforcement is going to look at this and say there is no crime(both adults, consensual). Because law enforcement refuses to prosecute does that mean the church should take no action against this man?

Or a man rapes a woman, he is found guilty and sentenced to 10 years in prison. From prison, the man writes a letter apologizing for what he did. He confesses his sin and wants to be right the church and with God, he talks about how he has found redemption. Does the church need to wait until law enforcement is done with their sentence to bring this man into fellowship again? Can this man be a church member while in prison?

I had assumed we were talking specifically about criminal sexual abuse.

I also assume that the church does its own investigation into what happened as a part of step #1 (reporting to law enforcement). When it finds that a crime has been committed, it should then report to LE.


I certainly agree that the church does not need to wait on law enforcement before acting either to sever fellowship and communion for a perpetrator, or restore them at its discretion. And behavior does not need to rise to the level of crime in order to be dealt with by the church.

An article from GRACE on why churches should resist the temptation to investigate abuse allegations.
https://www.netgrace.org/resources/resi ... estigation

[mike]

An article from GRACE on why churches should resist the temptation to investigate abuse allegations.
https://www.netgrace.org/resources/resi ... estigation

A church should not do the work of the police. An allegation is enough by itself, I assume, to legally require church leaders to report. I am not trying to say that the church should do a lengthy investigation before reporting. As soon as it becomes clear that there is a credible allegation of a crime a church should report.

What I'm pushing back against a bit is the idea that there must necessarily be a third party involved (aside from the church and law enforcement) in order for abuse to be dealt with properly. I certainly have no problem with choosing to do so. But I feel that it is not an absolute necessity. Law enforcement is best equipped in my opinion because not only do they have the professional training to uncover a crime but also the legal authority to deal with it.

[Josh]

If one tries to run certain types of ministries with marginalised or at-risk youth, false accusations can become very common (a multiple times a year occurrence). Some kind of procedure has to be in place to deal with that.

This was very common in the foster care system when I was a foster parent in California. Certain foster children reported abuse in every single home they were placed with, which resulted in being immediately moved to a new family (or to an institution if no families were available).law enforcement was not interested at all, and let the county social workers handle it.

[annkat]

This may have been discussed already, so my apologies if it has.

Is there any sort of requirement for pastors/ministers/ordained officials to be mandated reporters? I'm assuming not, since this issue of church knowing of abuse and not reporting it, and then subsequently getting away with that, seems to be ever growing. I almost wish there were a requirement that if your church is an organized group with established leadership of any kind, the leadership must undergo mandated reporter training. That way there is at least some kind of legal accountability if issues are continuously swept under the rug. I don't know how this would work feasibly and I'm sure there would be resistance, but if our goal is to make this CA circle a place for people, especially children, to feel safe in, we need to have some kinds of official procedures and safeguards in place in my opinion.

Being a teacher, I am a mandated reporter, meaning if something is revealed to me that indicates any form of abuse or neglect, I must report it to a higher authority within my school, or directly to CPS. I've heard teachers say that they feel this is a burden, but I disagree. If keeping our children safe is a priority, then we need to act like it's a priority. Sometimes families just need resources. Sometimes there's an abuser that needs to be apprehended. There's so many different outcomes that can happen, but our ultimate goal should be the protection, safety, and well-being of the children. Period.

[mike]

This may have been discussed already, so my apologies if it has.

Is there any sort of requirement for pastors/ministers/ordained officials to be mandated reporters? I'm assuming not, since this issue of church knowing of abuse and not reporting it, and then subsequently getting away with that, seems to be ever growing. I almost wish there were a requirement that if your church is an organized group with established leadership of any kind, the leadership must undergo mandated reporter training. That way there is at least some kind of legal accountability if issues are continuously swept under the rug. I don't know how this would work feasibly and I'm sure there would be resistance, but if our goal is to make this CA circle a place for people, especially children, to feel safe in, we need to have some kinds of official procedures and safeguards in place in my opinion.

Being a teacher, I am a mandated reporter, meaning if something is revealed to me that indicates any form of abuse or neglect, I must report it to a higher authority within my school, or directly to CPS. I've heard teachers say that they feel this is a burden, but I disagree. If keeping our children safe is a priority, then we need to act like it's a priority. Sometimes families just need resources. Sometimes there's an abuser that needs to be apprehended. There's so many different outcomes that can happen, but our ultimate goal should be the protection, safety, and well-being of the children. Period.

Yes, pastors are mandatory reporters. And pastors who did not report are going to jail in my state, and around the country.

[Aurien]

This may have been discussed already, so my apologies if it has.

Is there any sort of requirement for pastors/ministers/ordained officials to be mandated reporters? I'm assuming not, since this issue of church knowing of abuse and not reporting it, and then subsequently getting away with that, seems to be ever growing. I almost wish there were a requirement that if your church is an organized group with established leadership of any kind, the leadership must undergo mandated reporter training. That way there is at least some kind of legal accountability if issues are continuously swept under the rug. I don't know how this would work feasibly and I'm sure there would be resistance, but if our goal is to make this CA circle a place for people, especially children, to feel safe in, we need to have some kinds of official procedures and safeguards in place in my opinion.

Being a teacher, I am a mandated reporter, meaning if something is revealed to me that indicates any form of abuse or neglect, I must report it to a higher authority within my school, or directly to CPS. I've heard teachers say that they feel this is a burden, but I disagree. If keeping our children safe is a priority, then we need to act like it's a priority. Sometimes families just need resources. Sometimes there's an abuser that needs to be apprehended. There's so many different outcomes that can happen, but our ultimate goal should be the protection, safety, and well-being of the children. Period.

This is the most recent information I found on childwelfare.gov

Whether clergy members are mandated reporters or not varies by state.

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/cl ... provisions

This link tells which people are mandated reporters.

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/ma ... o%20report

[RZehr]

The mandated reporting system does give me concern. While so far, as it is, there isn’t much of a problem, I think there will be down the road. I think I see churches and preachers become used to that as the norm, and compliance becomes the norm, then over time more things become mandated to report, things that we do not believe to be sin. It’s setting the groundwork, I fear, for a USSR style partnership between the Russian Orthodox Church and the KGB. I don’t see anything that extreme, but I do see there coming a time where we will be in a position that the law requires us to report something against our own conscience.

I am concerned about the eroding of the freedom and independence of the church and religion.

[Josh]

I feel like we should cross that bridge when we come to it.

The Bible makes it clear that we should be persecuted for righteousness' sake, but not persecuted for doing things that are bad. (1 Peter 2:20)

[temporal1]

The mandated reporting system does give me concern. While so far, as it is, there isn’t much of a problem, I think there will be down the road. I think I see churches and preachers become used to that as the norm, and compliance becomes the norm, then over time more things become mandated to report, things that we do not believe to be sin. It’s setting the groundwork, I fear, for a USSR style partnership between the Russian Orthodox Church and the KGB. I don’t see anything that extreme, but I do see there coming a time where we will be in a position that the law requires us to report something against our own conscience.

I am concerned about the eroding of the freedom and independence of the church and religion.

This is “it.”
This is the price of not effectively identifying+responding to sins+crimes WITHIN.
If pastors and leaders could become very self-aware of the end price of sin to everyone involved,
to every innocent church member, this should be incentive to not stumble in response.

As we speak, churches are under scrutiny for various compliances with gov regulators.
In California, they want to remove confidentiality of Catholic confession, they want churches and faith based schools to provide for contraceptives and abortions, they want practicing homosexuals in all church employment and teaching; i believe Mississippi is considering faith based schools to be regulated by state standards, etc.

For non-believers, it’s 100% human reasoning, nothing else “makes sense.”

Certainly, it’s this very impossibility of understanding that makes protections of religious freedoms so important! Including CO status. If it were all agreed, no law would be necessary.

i read all through the year about places, Africa, China, and others, where Christians lead secret lives, or face brutality. Not often addressed in mainstream news.

We are so accustomed to freedoms, it’s easy to take them for granted - and, then, inadvertently give them away!

(i think) it’s important to recognize the role of allowing sin, of not directly addressing it, with regard to leading to loss of religious freedom. Christians “need to be” the go-to standard for the world to see as the leader for Truth, not as enablers for sinful abusers. a tough task.

In the past, courts had a high regard for church membership, church leaders. This has been eroded in recent decades (because, sin).

At this moment, the USSC is hearing a case about whether faith based ADOPTION agencies should be allowed to exist, IF they refuse to allow adoptions to homosexuals. This boggles my mind.

Churches have been essential in adoptions - from the start! Scriptures speak of adoptions.
Many are praying for a positive outcome. Catholic adoption services have been CLOSED in different states in recent years, quickly+efficiently CLOSED+REPLACED without “much ado” at all, even after 100 or more years of adoption services!

COMPLY OR CLOSE. PERIOD. They waste no time at all, they act without apology.

i mention Catholic cases because they are “the BIG target.”
and, because, others, Protestants, typically comply and continue in “business.”

Catholics have often closed rather than comply.
i can’t say this is true in all matters, i’m not sure.

i’m not sure about Canada, either. my understanding is, in Canada, gov+churches aren’t always as separate as in the U.S. (at one point, lester shared about his fellowship’s success in keeping their school separate - they had to show documentation of their financial independence, possibly more).
i think they were successful.

But, yes. The wolf is at the door.
In my view, because it makes no sense in human reasoning for it to be otherwise, i do not expect the wolf to go away. Can the wolf be converted??

On the other hand, if there is no distinction between the world and the church, it makes no sense for the church and church schools to continue. Being distinct IS what makes the effort and sacrifice worthwhile. For those who home school and private school, the efforts and sacrifice are tremendous. It is no small matter.

It’s important to “get this right,” about sexual predators in churches.
It’s important to get it right without “burning the place down.”

i believe we are experiencing one of the biggest “bends in the road” in church/human history.
these sins have been going on, pretty much “SOP” for “always,” at this time, like a huge game of musical chairs, the music has stopped, everyone is scrambling for a chair, not everyone will find a chair.

too many have lived+died lives of egregious sin with little or no accountability.
today’s abusers are not getting the free pass others did before them.

it’s not over. too early to have peace. the evil in this is not about to give up and go away.
it will search every nook+cranny to find ways to continue. there is no “once+done.”

continual prayer, continual vigilance. we are not to sleep.

now. do i have the nerve to post this? too many words.

[temporal1]

I feel like we should cross that bridge when we come to it.

The Bible makes it clear that we should be persecuted for righteousness' sake, but not persecuted for doing things that are bad. (1 Peter 2:20)

i guess .. i tend to think the existing problems must be faced in real time, in real life, for what they are, it will be painful. hopefully, painful-enough to “go and sin no more” in future.
sin hurts, it’s supposed to.

i suppose .. maybe like RZehr, i don’t want to jump from the frying pan into the fire.
when words like, “mandated,” and “regulated” come in, people get lazy, depend on the system, voila’, right back to square 1. because NO EARTHLY SYSTEM is perfect. we have to accept that.
no guarantees. no replacement for first-person accountability.

i, also, believe, if “the place burns down,” Truth will continue. Jesus is eternal.
There will be a way, His Way.

i hope it doesn’t come to that extreme. my vision is limited.
if it does, it’s not the end. it might be the beginning of New Life many pray for.