The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[ABC 123]

I have been giving some thought to what I said earlier. Maybe it is my irritation over the lack of proper counseling techniques that I mean mostly. Preachers getting up at "tent meetings" who have altar calls who have absolutely no idea what to do with the stuff they hear people confessing or telling them. In that case, I have seen a number of CA self assured that they are qualified to advise people.

[temporal1]

Josh:
I've started a separate thread to discuss this. This is an issue that is not specific to CAM.

Notice, the subject line: .. “and assorted other topics thread.”
(i would) defer to the OP.

(i think) there are other CAM threads that are more purist in purpose.

It would be helpful to include a link, or at least the name of the new thread.

[ohio jones]

It would be helpful to include a link, or at least the name of the new thread.

Try this:
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2677

[Sienna]

CA are almost proud of eschewing proper education and training. Our ways are better, and who needs a degree for that??

I don't know where you are from but the area I live in (Lancaster, PA.) That statement is NOT true. When you make blanket statements about conservative Anabaptist's, you are speaking about ALL of them.

This thread is turning into distortions and gross exaggerations.

I believe the point I Timothy is making is that the solution is really quite simple. It is for conservative Mennonites to go get the proper training and credentials. There really is no excuse for this. Those from the U.S. are among the wealthiest populations of the world. What hinders them? I Timothy seems to be making the point that their pride hinders them. I would agree.

[Josh]

I believe the point I Timothy is making is that the solution is really quite simple. It is for conservative Mennonites to go get the proper training and credentials. There really is no excuse for this. Those from the U.S. are among the wealthiest populations of the world. What hinders them? I Timothy seems to be making the point that their pride hinders them. I would agree.

Is it? It seems that seeking higher education and credentials often results in spiritual decay or in pride.

Perhaps it's best for God's people to pursue a simple life, avoid pride, and leave being an "expert" up to the secular world. We shouldn't be afraid to hire a worldly person who is an expert in farming, or an expert in the law, or an expert in some other field. But we don't need to be so proud of our own people and culture that we all try to be experts ourselves.

[Sienna]

CAM is not a golden calf...nor is it an evil empire.

I think some leaders at CAM messed up regarding vetting and responding to charges of sexual abuse within its ranks, and then other CAM leaders underestimated the transparency, accountability and urgency needed to set things right and regain broken trust. I think CAM is a reflection of its larger Conservative Anabaptist culture in that regard. These are issues that absolutely must be addressed for the protection of victims, for our witness, and for the cause of Christ. That's the scope of it. Not more - not less.

But also remember, CAM does wonderful work for Jesus. I've been a part of it - seen it's results first hand. Through CAM, hundreds of committed Christians around the world are empowering the poor, teaching the uneducated, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, evangelizing - all in the precious name of Jesus! And thousands of good-hearted donors are supporting these efforts. CAM is part of the work of Christ, not against it. I don't think you tear a house down because the furnace is broken. By all means, quick, fix the furnace before more damage occurs...but keep investing in the house so it can do what it was meant to do!

I am not sure that I would call making a boy choose between sex abuse or food an example of empowerment. Sounds more like grooming or paternalism. Are all CAM programs like this? No. But these are issues that the management failed to identify and to have a system of checks and balances. This is called a lack of institutional control.

CAM has separated itself from the work of the body of Christ, they are separating themselves from other Christians. They think they are the body of Christ and those who are outside CA circles are "worldly unbelievers". Maybe some humility in engaging the body of Christ by bringing in an organization like GRACE would help it grow. Then again it makes us wonder what CAM is really trying to hide.

A better illustration is that the furnace decided it could heat better if it was outside the house. What gain is there in running a furnace outside the house? The heat is quickly lost because it is not part of the house. Would you keep running gas to a furnace that is not connected to the house?

I can understand how those who've worked for CAM without inside knowledge of the EL would want to believe the best. However, what is one to believe when individuals close to the back end of the situation say people in the local area are shutting up due to cash settlements being paid and that CAM is "lawyered up," with layers of lawyers. Really? Is this reflective of the majority of "veil wearing," "modest dressing," "we have an inside track on Biblical interpretation," Christians? Or, is it only reflective of several at the top leading the masses to believe they are doing differently? How is this Christian integrity? I'm curious if CAM will put out in a public report how much is being paid to lawyers and how much is being paid in "settlements." I hope investigations continue because I for one would like objective truth to be known.

[ken_sylvania]

CA are almost proud of eschewing proper education and training. Our ways are better, and who needs a degree for that??

I don't know where you are from but the area I live in (Lancaster, PA.) That statement is NOT true. When you make blanket statements about conservative Anabaptist's, you are speaking about ALL of them.

This thread is turning into distortions and gross exaggerations.

I believe the point I Timothy is making is that the solution is really quite simple. It is for conservative Mennonites to go get the proper training and credentials. There really is no excuse for this. Those from the U.S. are among the wealthiest populations of the world. What hinders them? I Timothy seems to be making the point that their pride hinders them. I would agree.

How many conservative Mennonites do you personally know who are practicing medicine without "proper credentials," and how many of them do you know well enough to be able to fairly and accurately assess their motive? There are probably a few out there, but is it fair to tar all of them with the same brush?

[Sienna]

I believe the point I Timothy is making is that the solution is really quite simple. It is for conservative Mennonites to go get the proper training and credentials. There really is no excuse for this. Those from the U.S. are among the wealthiest populations of the world. What hinders them? I Timothy seems to be making the point that their pride hinders them. I would agree.

Is it? It seems that seeking higher education and credentials often results in spiritual decay or in pride.

Perhaps it's best for God's people to pursue a simple life, avoid pride, and leave being an "expert" up to the secular world. We shouldn't be afraid to hire a worldly person who is an expert in farming, or an expert in the law, or an expert in some other field. But we don't need to be so proud of our own people and culture that we all try to be experts ourselves.

I would have to respectfully disagree as I've experienced the opposite. Pride is a human condition, and some of the most educated people I know are also the most humble as they understand how much they don't know. Conversely, some of the most prideful folks are those with little knowledge and no desire to continue learning (a command from God) who come across as knowing everything and not in need of other voices. Personally, I find it fascinating which professions are being named as "okay" to hire from the outside world. How were these conclusions reached? I presume you personally wouldn't want a heart surgery performed on yourself by someone untrained even if a nurse is present who knows more about it than the untrained person? And isn't this the point even in the JM case and in regards to sexual abuse; that the wrong solution (procedure) performed by the most well-intentioned person can produce even more harm? This is certainly true in sexual abuse situations.

[Sienna]

I don't know where you are from but the area I live in (Lancaster, PA.) That statement is NOT true. When you make blanket statements about conservative Anabaptist's, you are speaking about ALL of them.

This thread is turning into distortions and gross exaggerations.

I believe the point I Timothy is making is that the solution is really quite simple. It is for conservative Mennonites to go get the proper training and credentials. There really is no excuse for this. Those from the U.S. are among the wealthiest populations of the world. What hinders them? I Timothy seems to be making the point that their pride hinders them. I would agree.

How many conservative Mennonites do you personally know who are practicing medicine without "proper credentials," and how many of them do you know well enough to be able to fairly and accurately assess their motive? There are probably a few out there, but is it fair to tar all of them with the same brush?

Correction: When I say pride, I speak of a kind of cultural pride. I don't know individual motives as only God knows the motives of the heart. But certainly, I've heard individual persons taking pride in their lack of learning and it seems to reflect an attitude of the culture. And the most common excuse is that it leads people away from God. What is more "away from God" than abusing children and then covering it up? I come back to this.

[Sienna]

CA are almost proud of eschewing proper education and training. Our ways are better, and who needs a degree for that??

I don't know where you are from but the area I live in (Lancaster, PA.) That statement is NOT true. When you make blanket statements about conservative Anabaptist's, you are speaking about ALL of them.

This thread is turning into distortions and gross exaggerations.

I'm curious why you think CAM has a difficult time attracting trained professionals?