The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[Josh]

I have noted Gothardism definitely took a spin through BMA type churches. The ones just a notch more conservative than BMA seem to be the ones with youth who have been saddled with living out the teachings and struggling to do so. (For instance, a disproportionate amount of older single people.)

That is interesting. I've been hearing some reaction from the folks a notch more conservative than BMA regarding the doctrine related to "finding the spouse God has chosen for you". Some of these folks are ready to head back towards the sanctified dating practices of the 40's and 50's.

That would be really refreshing. I love hearing the stories of older couples who are now in their 70s or 80s tell me about how they met.

[I Timothy]

How does one respond to the charge that CAM is the golden calf of the Amish/Mennonite church? The golden calf is what Israel worshiped and gave its wealth towards. "Since we have the golden calf, we can do no wrong, God is with us."

Israel didn't want to get rid of its golden calf, they tried to justify its existence instead.

[Grace]

How does one respond to the charge that CAM is the golden calf of the Amish/Mennonite church? The golden calf is what Israel worshiped and gave its wealth towards. "Since we have the golden calf, we can do no wrong, God is with us."

Israel didn't want to get rid of its golden calf, they tried to justify its existence instead.

Some in leadership at CAM have made some very egregious mistakes. That aside, In comparing Israel's golden calf to CAM, the question needs to be asked. Did Israel's golden calf give to thousands, maybe millions of the poorest of poor in this world. Did the golden calf help those who lost homes in natural disasters? Did the golden calf reach out to the widows and orphans?

I do agree that there is WAY to much pride in the Mennonite/Amish culture. And that includes pride in our mission organizations, Bible Schools, etc. including organizations such as CAM. We get various newsletters from different mission organizations and sometimes in reading them, I cringe at some of the articles, how the pride, though subtle, oozes through.

[I Timothy]

Some in leadership at CAM have made some very egregious mistakes. That aside, In comparing Israel's golden calf to CAM, the question needs to be asked. Did Israel's golden calf give to thousands, maybe millions of the poorest of poor in this world. Did the golden calf help those who lost homes in natural disasters? Did the golden calf reach out to the widows and orphans?

I do agree that there is WAY to much pride in the Mennonite/Amish culture. And that includes pride in our mission organizations, Bible Schools, etc. including organizations such as CAM. We get various newsletters from different mission organizations and sometimes in reading them, I cringe at some of the articles, how the pride, though subtle, oozes through.

The charge is that by focusing on the golden calf, God's holiness and his demand for holiness was covered up. Idolatry led the children of Israel into immorality such as adultery. Does CAM/plain clothes/culture hide our view of morality? For example, as long as you wear a cape dress you can fornicate and not get called out for it? Wearing a plain coat allows you to visit massage parlors if you are a minister?

[flyingnorm]

[.

Should these abuse situations cause us to review our beliefs around healthy leadership culture and church structure?

A very valid question - I'd like to see you articulate what you see as your solution to this given your experience?

It seems to varying degrees churches can move from a body of Christ following God worshippers to an institution providing valuable services for its members. I personally think the purpose governance models for both ends of the spectrum call for different things. When these purposes get enmeshed in one institution under one governance model, thing get strange. When my preacher is my boss or my school board chairman, one challenge in one area bleeds to another, and problems become difficult to solve. Its so difficult to solve problems that its really not safe to have problems. When its not safe to have little problems, the inevitable problems of fallen men grow into scandalous events.

Step one is to have real segregation of responsibilities among leaders and institutions, and recognition of individual freedom, responsibility, and accountability.

Step two is for such individuals who know their individual freedom, responsibility, and authority, to willingly submit themselves to God and each other as an act of worship of God rather than as an act of gaining favour with people that control the individuals personal financial and social measures.

Basic repentance and turning toward God is all I am really talking about.

[mike]

How does one respond to the charge that CAM is the golden calf of the Amish/Mennonite church? The golden calf is what Israel worshiped and gave its wealth towards. "Since we have the golden calf, we can do no wrong, God is with us."

Israel didn't want to get rid of its golden calf, they tried to justify its existence instead.

I would be far more likely to view a $60 million investment fund offering unusually high rates of return as a golden calf than I would CAM.

[Dan Z]

CAM is not a golden calf...nor is it an evil empire.

I think some leaders at CAM messed up regarding vetting and responding to charges of sexual abuse within its ranks, and then other CAM leaders underestimated the transparency, accountability and urgency needed to set things right and regain broken trust. I think CAM is a reflection of its larger Conservative Anabaptist culture in that regard. These are issues that absolutely must be addressed for the protection of victims, for our witness, and for the cause of Christ. That's the scope of it. Not more - not less.

But also remember, CAM does wonderful work for Jesus. I've been a part of it - seen it's results first hand. Through CAM, hundreds of committed Christians around the world are empowering the poor, teaching the uneducated, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, evangelizing - all in the precious name of Jesus! And thousands of good-hearted donors are supporting these efforts. CAM is part of the work of Christ, not against it. I don't think you tear a house down because the furnace is broken. By all means, quick, fix the furnace before more damage occurs...but keep investing in the house so it can do what it was meant to do!

[Josh]

CAM’s problem is being a $100 million institution that lacks proper administration, oversight, and accountability.

That makes it very attractive to evil people who want to subvert it for their own ends.

The solution is not to just keep giving more money to the institution. Why can’t we federate CAM and turn it into a consortium of many different, smaller institutions with lots and lots of oversight and no big pot of money where sociopaths can run and hide?

[Josh]

Through CAM, hundreds of committed Christians around the world are empowering the poor, teaching the uneducated, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, evangelizing - all in the precious name of Jesus

Isn’t this the job of the local church?

This isn’t something I should buy as a service because I had extra money left over from last year and need a tax deduction.

[Judas Maccabeus]

CAM is not a golden calf...nor is it an evil empire.

I think some leaders at CAM messed up regarding vetting and responding to charges of sexual abuse within its ranks, and then other CAM leaders underestimated the transparency, accountability and urgency needed to set things right and regain broken trust. I think CAM is a reflection of its larger Conservative Anabaptist culture in that regard. These are issues that absolutely must be addressed for the protection of victims, for our witness, and for the cause of Christ. That's the scope of it. Not more - not less.

But also remember, CAM does wonderful work for Jesus. I've been a part of it - seen it's results first hand. Through CAM, hundreds of committed Christians around the world are empowering the poor, teaching the uneducated, feeding the hungry, healing the sick, evangelizing - all in the precious name of Jesus! And thousands of good-hearted donors are supporting these efforts. CAM is part of the work of Christ, not against it. I don't think you tear a house down because the furnace is broken. By all means, quick, fix the furnace before more damage occurs...but keep investing in the house and so it can do what it was meant to do!

I would say at most their problem is trusting the word of local churches as to the qualification and suitability of candidates far too much. They also should have called in experienced help as soon as this came to their attention.

That being said, they are fallible humans, and are trying. If my experience in the evangelical world is any guide, their response is average, maybe a bit better than average. We might have an expectation that they would be better than that, but they seem better than most.

I could show what bad is really like, you need only look at the C&MA missionary boarding school scandal of the 90s, they LITERALLY had to picket general council to get them to even consider that something had gone very wrong.

I think they are moving toward a solution, it would go far better for them if they got outside help. I am praying that they do.

J.M.