The CAM scandal links and assorted other topics thread

[steve-in-kville]

Where do the Charity groups fall on the Mennonite spectrum? Moderate-Conservative?

These days, it really depends on the congregation. Our local Charity group (Harmony) would most likely require cape dresses. Ironically, even though the hanging veil started as a "Charity thing" its not required as some still use a cap-style. Dress wise I would equate them to the Pilgrim-ish level, if that makes sense.

[Josh]

Where do the Charity groups fall on the Mennonite spectrum? Moderate-Conservative? Progressive-Conservative? I'm wondering because my former church which falls under Progressive-Conservative was really into Bill Gothard's teachings for a while. From some of the things I heard at Sharon Mennonite Bible Institute's Family Week it seems like Gothard's teachings had crept into a number of churches. I don't know what group everyone who attended Family Week fell into but a lot of them seem like they would have fallen under the Progressive-Conservative label.

Every Charity church is different. Some are moderate, some are ultra, some are progressive-.

In my experience, the less conservative the group, the more likely it was to get taken up in Gothardism. You won't find Gothard stuff around in Eastern or Nationwide circles, and it's rare in Pilgrim circles, but very common in the more liberal Charity or in a Mid-West Fellowship congregation.

[Aurien]

Where do the Charity groups fall on the Mennonite spectrum? Moderate-Conservative? Progressive-Conservative? I'm wondering because my former church which falls under Progressive-Conservative was really into Bill Gothard's teachings for a while. From some of the things I heard at Sharon Mennonite Bible Institute's Family Week it seems like Gothard's teachings had crept into a number of churches. I don't know what group everyone who attended Family Week fell into but a lot of them seem like they would have fallen under the Progressive-Conservative label.

Every Charity church is different. Some are moderate, some are ultra, some are progressive-.

In my experience, the less conservative the group, the more likely it was to get taken up in Gothardism. You won't find Gothard stuff around in Eastern or Nationwide circles, and it's rare in Pilgrim circles, but very common in the more liberal Charity or in a Mid-West Fellowship congregation.

That's pretty much what I thought. I asked my Mom about hearing Gothard's teachings and her recollection was also that it was the less conservative churches that taught his stuff.

[Josh]

So ironically, you have more of this rot in less conservative settings. (In my view the less conservative settings were more independent and isolated, though.)

I have often wondered if there is a link between Gothardism and plain churches that now have a serious abuse and cover up problem.

[ABC 123]

For some perspective, I am pretty sure JM's church took a decided stand against Gothardism. It ruffled some feathers because some of them brought Gothard teachings with them.

I have noted Gothardism definitely took a spin through BMA type churches. The ones just a notch more conservative than BMA seem to be the ones with youth who have been saddled with living out the teachings and struggling to do so. (For instance, a disproportionate amount of older single people.)

[Aurien]

So ironically, you have more of this rot in less conservative settings. (In my view the less conservative settings were more independent and isolated, though.)

I have often wondered if there is a link between Gothardism and plain churches that now have a serious abuse and cover up problem.

It kinda seems like some of the less conservative churches tried to replace the "traditional" extra-biblical standards (covering strings, black cars, cape dresses, or whatever) with a different set of extra-biblical standards.

[Aurien]

For some perspective, I am pretty sure JM's church took a decided stand against Gothardism. It ruffled some feathers because some of them brought Gothard teachings with them.

I have noted Gothardism definitely took a spin through BMA type churches. The ones just a notch more conservative than BMA seem to be the ones with youth who have been saddled with living out the teachings and struggling to do so. (For instance, a disproportionate amount of older single people.)

It definitely took a spin through my BMA church. I remember it being a big deal in the early 2000s. I think it died down after awhile because I don't remember hearing much about it in the time before I withdrew my membership in 2010.

[RZehr]

So ironically, you have more of this rot in less conservative settings. (In my view the less conservative settings were more independent and isolated, though.)

I have often wondered if there is a link between Gothardism and plain churches that now have a serious abuse and cover up problem.

I think this is because the more conservative churches have some caution and a high level of skepticism on anything that is not conservative Mennonite. The less conservative churches, are much more comfortable listened to a wide range of folks.

Long ago I asked my Dad about Gothard, he shrugged. He said the names of his peers that went to the seminars, and in hindsight now, those families are no longer in the same churches as they were back then. They just were more open minded in a lot of other things I guess than the old fashioned people.

So I don’t know that the conservatives had much more insight per se into the Gothard gospel, they were just spared by their general resistance to new ideas.

[appleman2006]

So ironically, you have more of this rot in less conservative settings. (In my view the less conservative settings were more independent and isolated, though.)

I have often wondered if there is a link between Gothardism and plain churches that now have a serious abuse and cover up problem.

I think this is because the more conservative churches have some caution and a high level of skepticism on anything that is not conservative Mennonite. The less conservative churches, are much more comfortable listened to a wide range of folks.

Long ago I asked my Dad about Gothard, he shrugged. He said the names of his peers that went to the seminars, and in hindsight now, those families are no longer in the same churches as they were back then. They just were more open minded in a lot of other things I guess than the old fashioned people.

So I don’t know that the conservatives had much more insight per se into the Gothard gospel, they were just spared by their general resistance to new ideas.

I think that is a good observation. There were people in our circles back in the late 70's and 80's that had some reservations to going to Gothard events but it mostly had to do with a resistance of anything Non Mennonite and not necessarily what he taught. . (the one exception for those people often seemed to be prophecy conferences. )
However the one known exception to that was my Dad. I remember my Dad having some real problems with some of Gothard's teaching on authority in particular. He did not forbid me from going. I think he had enough confidence that he had taught me well enough to know I would not just blindly accept everything I heard.
I still really respect him for this.

[Ernie]

I have noted Gothardism definitely took a spin through BMA type churches. The ones just a notch more conservative than BMA seem to be the ones with youth who have been saddled with living out the teachings and struggling to do so. (For instance, a disproportionate amount of older single people.)

That is interesting. I've been hearing some reaction from the folks a notch more conservative than BMA regarding the doctrine related to "finding the spouse God has chosen for you". Some of these folks are ready to head back towards the sanctified dating practices of the 40's and 50's.