Define: “Woman”

[Josh]

What is “mature”? The brain develops like an adolescent until 23-26 or so. On the other hand, humans are mostly mature by 13-16 (and most ancient cultures considered this adulthood).

I’m fairly opposed to the modern world’s attempt to call 17 year olds “children”, particularly when they do very adult things like drive drunk, shoot people, etc

[temporal1]

What is “mature”? The brain develops like an adolescent until 23-26 or so.

Brain development is extremely important, only recently has science determined the “23-26” marker. It’s new thinking, i don’t believe our culture (or legal system) has begun to catch up with it. i think it’s wise to be cautious about what it means and does not mean.

Real life doctors assure me, they have LOADS yet to learn. i believe them.

When i was a teen, 16 was considered to be an adult in many ways, if you left school, you were expected to be an adult. 18, or having a H.S. diploma, was “adult.”

Over years, the societal pendulum has swung to the opposite.

On the other hand, humans are mostly mature by 13-16 (and most ancient cultures considered this adulthood).

No question about ancient cultures, and some not-so-ancient cultures.

God designed a conundrum when He allowed the human reproductive system to mature earlier than brain and/or physical development. This is the crux of the struggle (in this topic of “woman”).

You acknowledge slow brain maturity above.
Physically, children and teens continue to grow, too - so i was told by my children’s pediatrician.
He had to attend to pregnant children and teens, he told me, sadly, their bodies, their bones, are not ready. i believe him.

Many teens are taller than me, stronger than me, faster than me, smarter than me.

.. An example:
My daughter was fully all these things at 16. She was empowered! And, a handful.

One fine summer day, she decided to take a swing at me. She hit my forehead. Hard.
i was shocked. i retreated, took my time. calmed down. looked in the mirror to see a big “goose egg” on my forehead. wow. i wasn’t sure how to respond. she was quiet in her room.

her father was not present right then. i don’t know what he would have done. my father would have used his leather belt, he would have wanted to kill me, i’m pretty sure.
to strike a parent was forbidden. (in olden days, parents, esp fathers, did not hesitate to threaten death.)

many would have advised me to call the police.
i thought about it. i decided not to.

in a bit, calmly, i went to her room. i showed her the damage. she was mortified. she did not want to see it. she refused to admit she had done it. i quietly but firmly assured her she had.

at that point, i told her she had a serious decision to make.
i told her, “you are stronger than me, faster than me, smarter than me.”
“but, there is one thing you are not.” i remember her puzzled look! really. she really thot she was “everything” more than me. (a classic sign of immaturity.)

“you are not more mature than me.” “and, you won’t be for a long while.”

i let her know i was not going to call authorities.
that she was going to have to decide. does she want her mother in her life, or not?
i told her, yes, you can kill me, and that is your decision to live with.
this was a sober talk.

i told her, life can be long. that i was not sure she would really want to face it alone.
children+teens have little concept of time, of the permanence of their actions, of death.
i urged her to think that through.

she never lifted a hand against me again. Praise God.
i don’t believe we ever discussed it again.

the situation with teen boys and violence can get crazy, and often does.
why did God design us like this?
all this tremendous physical power+ability, with immature brains?

I’m fairly opposed to the modern world’s attempt to call 17 year olds “children”,
particularly when they do very adult things like drive drunk, shoot people, etc.

Our legal system is screwed up, our culture gets a lot wrong. Courts have no choice but to attempt to rule according to human law. Some judges are wiser than others, and are able to use discretion.

Legally, children and teens are both minors and dependents. i believe they need to be.
i would not refer to many older teens as children, but do not hesitate to see them as minors and dependents.

i understand, courts have some flexibility with rulings, both regarding the nature of the crime, age, history of maturity (school records, psych evaluations, etc.) .. there are some major failures in rulings. human courts are fallible. they should be avoided!

In this thread, in current U.S. legal terms, with Christian perspective, i hope to focus on:
pregnant children+teens are not “women with rights” - to secret gov sponsored for-profit corporate abortion.

Because i see this happening - right under everyone’s noses.

[Ken]

So how do you all reconcile:

1. This notion that teens teens are too immature and undeveloped to decide about things like abortion and marriage and such under the age of 18 (or 21).

with...

2. The conservative Anabaptist or Amish tradition of only educating kids through age 16 and then pushing them out into adult working life?

[temporal1]

So how do you all reconcile:

1. This notion that teens teens are too immature and undeveloped to decide about things like abortion and marriage and such under the age of 18 (or 21).

with...

2. The conservative Anabaptist or Amish tradition of only educating kids through age 16 and then pushing them out into adult working life?

That’s an interesting question that i’ve sort-of lived both sides of, not as an Anabaptist, but from a time when this was not uncommon thinking in the world.

i’ll have to return. out of time just now.

[ken_sylvania]

So how do you all reconcile:

1. This notion that teens teens are too immature and undeveloped to decide about things like abortion and marriage and such under the age of 18 (or 21).

with...

2. The conservative Anabaptist or Amish tradition of only educating kids through age 16 and then pushing them out into adult working life?

I think teenagers 16-21 ought to be working with either their own family or other stable people who share their faith. I am inclined to think that was the traditional approach.

[Josh]

I’m not aware of Anabaptists generally pushing 16 year olds into the big broad world of employment. They prefer something closer to home, involving someone they know, etc

The history of grade 9-12 education was to address unemployment in the Depression at a national scale, and to address the complaints on New York City that teenaged Irish youth were causing trouble.

8th grade education was fine for America’s first few centuries. I find it interesting so many people take at face value that grade 12 education is a must, and that college education is a must. Particularly when the educational system is basically an anti-Christian system, and systematically destroys young Christian people’s faith.