Television - Revelations

[gcdonner]

I may not change your mind, but you still deserve to know all the facts:

Josephus
Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. (Josephus, Wars, Book 6, Chp. 5, Pg.742)

Compare this passage with Revelation 19:14 & Matthew 24:30!?

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

I think this is more like what they saw in the clouds:

Exactly, which is how Jesus said he would return.

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

Rev 12

7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11
They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12
Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

[Outsider]

Exactly, which is how Jesus said he would return.

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

If you look again at the bits of Rev. 12 I quoted, you'll notice that it is specifically talking about a not-so Christlike entity (by name) coming down to Earth.

[gcdonner]

Exactly, which is how Jesus said he would return.

Mat 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 

If you look again at the bits of Rev. 12 I quoted, you'll notice that it is specifically talking about a not-so Christlike entity (by name) coming down to Earth.

There is nothing about the devil "coming in the clouds". Only God comes in the clouds, ie, veiled appearances. Similar to when he came into Egypt a long time ago (not for Moses...)

Isa 19:1  The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. 

It is very reminiscent of Rev 19:

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 
12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 
13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 
14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 

[Outsider]

There is nothing about the devil "coming in the clouds". Only God comes in the clouds, ie,

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with your conclusion.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with (D)the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Scripture says that those who are alive in Christ should be caught up to him in the air on his return. This is where the "rapture" doctrine originates. Who was caught up to Christ on that day the temple fell in Jerusalem? Surely all those who were faithful in Christ were caught up on that day if the Lord had returned? The temple in Jerusalem fell in 70- but Revelation was writting in 80-90. Surely John had been caught up to Heaven with the other faithful?

[gcdonner]

There is nothing about the devil "coming in the clouds". Only God comes in the clouds, ie,

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with your conclusion.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with (D)the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Scripture says that those who are alive in Christ should be caught up to him in the air on his return. This is where the "rapture" doctrine originates. Who was caught up to Christ on that day the temple fell in Jerusalem? Surely all those who were faithful in Christ were caught up on that day if the Lord had returned? The temple in Jerusalem fell in 70- but Revelation was writting in 80-90. Surely John had been caught up to Heaven with the other faithful?

The dating of the book of Revelation has been an oft discussed issue in interpretation. I hold to the early writing, probably in the 40s.(see at the bottom) There are many modern interpreters who are supporting an early date, rather than the later date of AD 96, which is based solely on one dubious statement, which can be translated/interpreted in 2 different ways which give 2 entirely different meanings to the statement.

The external evidence centers around Irenaeus (130-202). He was commenting on the number 666 when he wrote: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign."
If John saw the vision towards the end of Domitian's reign, then a date of 95 or 96 AD would fit very nicely, for Domitian was killed in 96 AD, after being Caesar for 14 years. But the statement is ambiguous as to what was seen. Was it John that was seen or did he see the vision then? If it was John that was seen, the vision had to have been seen earlier. If John, then he had been last seen 'almost in their day,' and if it had been necessary for them to have known the name of the Antichrist, John could have made it known to them. Therefore, a date earlier than 95 AD would be required. Another statement by Irenaeus seems to indicate the earlier date also. In his fifth book he speaks as follows concerning the Apocalypse of John and the number of the name of the Antichrist: "As these things are so, and this number is found in all the approved and ancient copies." Domitian's reign was almost in his own day, but now he speaks of the Revelation being written in ancient copies. His statement at least gives some doubt as to the "vision" being seen in 95 AD which was almost in his day, and even suggests a time somewhat removed from his own day for him to consider the copies available to him as ancient. (Dating the Book of Revelation By Jim Hopkins)

If the "rapture" took place in those days, who would be left to report on it? Do you wonder why there is a dearth of Christian writings for a period of several decades after the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem? Or perhaps we have let our imaginations take us where Paul never intended for us to go? Paul fully expected to be one of the number of those "caught up". He wrote not of his own knowledge in the Thessalonian passage, but by the "word of the Lord". Was he mistaken and therefor not inspired or perhaps we are reading into the passage something that was never intended.
To be honest I don't know the answer, but if the NT writers are inspired then they couldn't all be wrong about the expected soon return of Christ. I suggest that it is we who are mistaken and don't grasp the reality of what they were saying/teaching.

Peter definitely said,

1Pe 4:7  But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

  the writer to the Hebrew Christians said,

Heb 10:37  For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 

Paul said,

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 

John the revelator said,

Rev 22:10  And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 
11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 

Finally, regarding the timing of the writing of the Revelation, I personally believe that Paul was referring to John when he said,

2Co 12:2  I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 
3  And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 
4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 
We think that this letter to the Corinthians was written around AD 55, which if my belief is true, would make John's revelation to be seen in the 40s.