Television - Revelations

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Accidentally posted twice...

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One thing that must be recognized when trying to interpret scripture is that it is consistent with other scripture, and can be interpreted using other scripture. The time factor for the Revelation is one such perspective that is so often overlooked in this regard. Both from internal evidence in the book itself as well as external evidence from the other books dictates that the fulfillment of the book was found in the first century AD. It is better to adjust our understanding to comply with scripture than to try and force scripture to fit our imaginations.
John says several times in the Revelation that these things were shortly to come to pass or about to come to pass and that Jesus himself declared that he would come soon. Rather than imposing an unprecedented definition of "soon", as many do, we need only to look at what the writer of the book of Hebrews had to say about the coming of Christ.

Heb 10:37  For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 

But he also says:

Matthew 24

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What do you say to this?

The book of Hebrews was written sometime in the 60s, not long before the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem.
I suggest that just as Jesus said,
 
It happened within the contemporary generation of his incarnation. He was no false prophet and his concept of a generation in this context was the understood 40 year time period, which would culminate in AD 70.

No, he is not a false prophet. He didn't prophecy when he would return.

Matthew 24

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Mark 13

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

He only prophecied how. And what's a couple of thousand years to God?

Time is short for me now so I must leave my comments for the moment. Being an old man, I suspect that the "end of the world" for me will be sooner than for y'all.

You never can tell. Youth doesn't guarantee tomorrow. Nor old age forbid. May your life be long, and prosperous.

[gcdonner]

One thing that must be recognized when trying to interpret scripture is that it is consistent with other scripture, and can be interpreted using other scripture. The time factor for the Revelation is one such perspective that is so often overlooked in this regard. Both from internal evidence in the book itself as well as external evidence from the other books dictates that the fulfillment of the book was found in the first century AD. It is better to adjust our understanding to comply with scripture than to try and force scripture to fit our imaginations.
John says several times in the Revelation that these things were shortly to come to pass or about to come to pass and that Jesus himself declared that he would come soon. Rather than imposing an unprecedented definition of "soon", as many do, we need only to look at what the writer of the book of Hebrews had to say about the coming of Christ.

Heb 10:37  For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 

But he also says:

Matthew 24

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What do you say to this?
I suggest you interpret the scripture as it was intended. Are you familiar with apocalyptic language?

2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 

How do you see? Was Jesus speaking of physical realities or? "all the tribes of the earth, would be better translated, "tribes of the land".

The book of Hebrews was written sometime in the 60s, not long before the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem.
I suggest that just as Jesus said,
 
It happened within the contemporary generation of his incarnation. He was no false prophet and his concept of a generation in this context was the understood 40 year time period, which would culminate in AD 70.

No, he is not a false prophet. He didn't prophecy when he would return.
He did say when it would be, "in this generation". The word generation is consistently used in the NT and throughout scripture as generally being 40 years, which is the average lifespan of an adult male.

Num_14:18  The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Num_32:13  And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
Deu_1:35  Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,
Deu_2:14  And the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, was thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them.

Mat_23:36  Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat_24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Luk_11:51  From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
Luk_17:25  But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk_21:32  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
Act_2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Matthew 24

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Mark 13

32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

He only prophecied how. And what's a couple of thousand years to God?
Time means nothing to God, but He speaks to us in time and His prophetic utterances are given time parameters so that we humans can see that He didn't lie to us through His prophets.

Have you read the first 3 verses of the book of Revelation?

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 
Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 
It answers point by point the verses that you quoted from Matt 24 & Mk 13.

Time is short for me now so I must leave my comments for the moment. Being an old man, I suspect that the "end of the world" for me will be sooner than for y'all.

You never can tell. Youth doesn't guarantee tomorrow. Nor old age forbid. May your life be long, and prosperous.

Time was short for my allotment to post at that point. I was making a point about time statements, they are relative to both the speaker/writer and his context.
When John spoke of things "shortly come to pass" and "soon", he was not uttering timeless statements or rubber band prophecies and some would have us to believe. He expected, as did Paul, Peter and the other NT writers to see the end in their own time. Peter said,

1Pe 4:7  But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 

Was he speaking of the end of the world, or the end of all things that Jesus had predicted would come with in "this generation"? Remember he wrote near the end of that generation...
All prophetic utterances have a time stamp on them. Notice I didn't say that the end would come sooner, but that I suspect it will be seeing as how I am 71 years old. In the natural scheme of things, I am nearing the end of my journey here, but as you pointed out, I could live longer than some on this forum who are much younger than I. I have lost several dear friends who frequented MennoDiscuss back in the day, two of whom were younger than I at their passing.


Here is something to contemplate that was written by the author of the book to the Hebrew Christians:

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. 

The Old Covenant was about to "vanish away". When did that happen?

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Both from internal evidence in the book itself as well as external evidence from the other books dictates that the fulfillment of the book was found in the first century AD. It is better to adjust our understanding to comply with scripture than to try and force scripture to fit our imaginations.

There are actually several schools of thought on the nature of Revelations. Historicists and Preterists are only two which come to mind off the top of my head- there are more if I'm not mistaken. As I have discussed with pastors and others before- it's not something you need to understand to be in Christ's grace. I certainly haven't all knowledge of the meanings in the book. What I believe strengthens my faith, because I can see prophecies fulfilled. I assume your point of view gives you the same sense. Some things we ultimately just have to agree to disagree on.

I suggest you interpret the scripture as it was intended. Are you familiar with apocalyptic language?

Well there are several schools of thought on the subject, as I noted.

2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 

I really don't think this discussion is the context in which Paul was writing. He wasn't teaching how to interpret apocalyptic writings- he was talking about the goals of living a Christian life.

How do you see? Was Jesus speaking of physical realities or? "all the tribes of the earth, would be better translated, "tribes of the land".

If the text had been Hebrew, I would say that it could be interpreted that way. I don't know about Aramaic- but it's closely related to Hebrew so it's possible. I don't know.

The book of Hebrews was written sometime in the 60s, not long before the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem.

He did say when it would be, "in this generation". The word generation is consistently used in the NT and throughout scripture as generally being 40 years, which is the average lifespan of an adult male.

Num_14:18  The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Num_32:13  And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.
Deu_1:35  Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,
Deu_2:14  And the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, was thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them.

All of the things he prophecied, except his coming, did occur. And of that, he said plainly 'I don't know.". If he didn't know, I surely don't know now.

He did warn people not to believe stories of him coming before he appeared, however.

Matthew 24
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."
Mark 13
32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Time means nothing to God, but He speaks to us in time and His prophetic utterances are given time parameters so that we humans can see that He didn't lie to us through His prophets.

Some things are given time parameters. Some things aren't.

Have you read the first 3 verses of the book of Revelation?

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 
Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 
Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
It answers point by point the verses that you quoted from Matt 24 & Mk 13.

Yes, many of the thing prophecied in Revelation occurred right after the time of John. The dragon giving the beast his power and authority after sending out a flood to destroy the remnant of the seed of the woman who descended from heaven, surely. But the timing is vague- unlike the prophecies of Daniel which gives weeks and days (which aren't really weeks and days) which work out to the exact time of Jesus.

He expected, as did Paul, Peter and the other NT writers to see the end in their own time. Peter said,

1Pe 4:7  But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. 

Because they were aware of their ignorance on the matter.

1 Thessalonians 5
[ The Day of the Lord ] But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. ...

2 Peter 3:10
[ The Day of the Lord ] But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Was he speaking of the end of the world, or the end of all things that Jesus had predicted

I'll say the plain meaning.

Here is something to contemplate that was written by the author of the book to the Hebrew Christians:

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. 

The Old Covenant was about to "vanish away". When did that happen?

When Christ died and the veil over the holy of holies was rent. Then it was buried with Titus's destruction of the temple.

[gcdonner]

When Christ died and the veil over the holy of holies was rent. Then it was buried with Titus's destruction of the temple.

Your response is problematic in that the book of Hebrews was written some 30 years after that even. The rending of the veil was the beginning of the NC, but not the end of the OC. The OC existed for another 40 years. God gave the OC people a full generation to hear and respond to the NC and Jesus as their Messiah.

Can you demonstrate that Jesus didn't return in the first century, "this generation" just like he said he would????

[QuietObserver]

When Christ died and the veil over the holy of holies was rent. Then it was buried with Titus's destruction of the temple.

Your response is problematic in that the book of Hebrews was written some 30 years after that even. The rending of the veil was the beginning of the NC, but not the end of the OC. The OC existed for another 40 years. God gave the OC people a full generation to hear and respond to the NC and Jesus as their Messiah.

Can you demonstrate that Jesus didn't return in the first century, "this generation" just like he said he would????

The OC existed for 40 years after Jesus death? I've never heard that before...what's your logic? Proof texts, please.

[Bootstrap]

Television is full of bad stuff. Lots of things are.

Not everything bad was prophesied in the Revelation. Not everything in the Revelation corresponds directly to something we see around us today. I don't see television sets when I read the Revelation.

[RZehr]

The most simple reason I don’t think Jesus returned is the astonishing lack of documentation of him returning. I think there would be stories recorded of it in the Bible, if not also secular.
Just as we read about Him coming back to life and appearing and ascending, I think we would have knowledge of the alternative end of the story, if that were the case; if He had returned and died or left again.

[Outsider]

When Christ died and the veil over the holy of holies was rent. Then it was buried with Titus's destruction of the temple.

The OC existed for 40 years after Jesus death? I've never heard that before...what's your logic? Proof texts, please.

"When the veil on the Holy of Holies was rent." That was symbolic of the end of the OC.

When I say it was "buried" I mean that people no longer even went through the forms from the OC with regard to sacrifices, etc. Paul took a Nazarite vow, at the same time as the council of Jerusalem:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

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Television is full of bad stuff. Lots of things are.

Not everything bad was prophesied in Revelations. Not everything in the Revelation corresponds directly to something we see around us today. I don't see television sets when I read Revelations.

I unequivocally see an image which "moves and speaks". As I mentioned earlier, this technology also includes movies.

The blind worship such political leaders as Obama, Trump, and Adolph Hitler have elicited (even among Anabaptists, I was shocked to learn through a post on this site!) through the medium- as well as being the main method through which secular materialism and atheism has been propagated throughout the world- should inform you of something. And can you deny that Hitler evoked the ghost of Rome with his legions of Nazis and their Eagle-topped banners? And when the President of the USA addresses the Senate(?), does he not do it between two fasces? Do you not see Rome? What does "many waters" make you think of? Just the Atlantic and Mediterranean, where ancient Rome held sway?

I stress again, I'm not condemning the medium. The technology is neutral. It is a thing, a tool. It is the spirit by which it is used which makes it good or bad. I'm typing on a large-screen TV (not a "smart tv") right now.

Correspondence might not equate with cause, but with the rise of television, so also has come the decline of religion:

https://religionnews.com/2014/01/27/gre ... one-graph/

If one knows a snake is poison, one is less likely to grab it up from the ground.